Buttoned Pocket Flaps A-2 Jackets

[zoomer]

Interesting. Those look like snaps. Maybe an "in the field" addition? I don't see rivets on the zip but not to clear of an image so it's hard to be sure.
Cool photo!

Werber's 36-1112P had a snap tab at the throat, in lieu of those fiddly hooks, which at the time, had to be sewn in. An answer to a non-problem, as fliers preferred scarves to a closed collar. No such thing appeared on an issued A-2 again.

Here's Good Wear's repop (he cannot have done very many!).

click to enlarge

 

[Persimmon]

I'm pretty sure I can see an epaulette on Hap's jacket, maybe set over the shoulder seam, the ridge/edge looks too thick to be a seam, with the info gleaned this weekend Aero are game to give making a repro Goldsmith a shot

I would be interested in having one made Ken.
What material would be used. Capeskin or horse ?

 

[zoomer]

The standard date of May 1931 leaves very little time to procure and sign contracts by the end of June.

The standard issue date might not have meant that the article was already available - just that it was approved for standard issue when available. The Security contract 32-485 would have gone thru early in FY '32, which began 7/1/31, and the first jackets would have reached depots in a matter of weeks.

 

[Roughwear]

I believe that could be the case. Also I believe that Hap Arnold's jacket on the right in the photo form the other post could in fact be a Goldsmith and not a Werber.p
View attachment 6056

A few reasons.
1. Smaller pocket that has a pointy flap compare to the Werber's rounded flap. Also appears to have double top stitching.
2. The collar shape is different and it has no snaps and a button over chip strap like an A-1.
3. Epaulets seem to be placed back further than usual. (I wish we had a better view of those.

Regards,
Jay

Jay, you make valid points. However as regards the pocket flap the two examples of Werber ones in Gary's book show them as being pointed. The size of pockets on the early Werber A-2s varied as did the size of the flap. The collar's strap was found on some of the jackets from the 36-1112-P Werber. So in essence I do not believe the jacket is a Goldsmith, but a Werber.

 

[zoomer]

PHOTOSHOP CONCEPTION ONLY
(hey, a guy can dream, can't he?)

 

[Nickb123]

This thread is so very epic. Good job to all!

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

I would be interested in having one made Ken.
What material would be used. Capeskin or horse ?

It would have to be Horse, I doubt if there were many Pitcher's Mitts made in Cape? Horses for courses :>)
Oddly enough we've recently taken delivery of some real Cape

 

[Persimmon]

It would have to be Horse, I doubt if there were many Pitcher's Mitts made in Cape? Horses for courses :>)
Oddly enough we've recently taken delivery of some real Cape

Of course - I guess it would and that should work.

Really your comment - about taking delivery of some real Cape .....
does that mean there is “ non real Cape “ ?

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Jay, you make valid points. However as regards the pocket flap the two examples of Werber ones in Gary's book show them as being pointed. The size of pockets on the early Werber A-2s varied as did the size of the flap. The collar's strap was found on some of the jackets from the 36-1112-P Werber. So in essence I do not believe the jacket is Goldsmith, but (not) a Werber.

I believe you've added the word not (in bold underlined above) in error, the "not" should in fact replace the word "but" in the final line

Collar loop (not strap) on Hap Armold's A-2 is in a total different place than the 3 Filipino Jackets now id'ed as 36 Werbers..thanks for that info........and it's a total different shape, a loop for a button not a studded strap

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Of course - I guess it would and that should work.

Really your comment - about taking delivery of some real Cape .....
does that mean there is “ non real Cape “ ?

Cape is a VERY widely used term these days, like Cordovan, not all "cordovan" is Shell any longer, our CXFQHH isn't. The term Cordovan has become rather watered down (partly Aero's fault, sorry) ditto the word Cape is also less specific than it was.

 

[Roughwear]

I believe you've added the word not (in bold underlined above) in error, the "not" should in fact replace the word "but" in the final line

Collar loop (not strap) on Hap Armold's A-2 is in a total different place than the 3 Filipino Jackets now id'ed as 36 Werbers..thanks for that info........and it's a total different shape, a loop for a button not a studded strap

This is true, but is does NOT rule out the Werber suggestion. Yes it is a loop and does not have a snap, but it simply may be a development by Werber on the later contract.

 

[Dr H]

Really your comment - about taking delivery of some real Cape .....
does that mean there is “ non real Cape “ ?

Certainly some is more convincing than others Alan.
These images each have a portion of 70+ year old cape alongside ELC .50 cal.

 

[Skyhawk]

This is true, but is does NOT rule out the Werber suggestion. Yes it is a loop and does not have a snap, but it simply may be a development by Werber on the later contract.

Or it could be a Goldsmith. The pocket design is radically different than the Werbers of the same period, with the double top stitching. Also the collar is a different shape. It appears the epaulet positing is different as well. I don't think we have seen this jacket close up before.



Alan. Capeskin seems to have come in several different grains and still does. Some are pretty smooth while others like our new Capeskin below has raised areas and a lot of grain. This particular Capeskin has a matching grain to one of the Cape originals we are reproducing right now pictured below:

 

[zoomer]

Ultra-closeup of Arnold's latch/strap, which seems to have Andrew and Ken in a bit of a set-to. No need for that.

I'd call it a tab - like on dress shirt collars (anyone familiar with tab-collar shirts???)...a piece with a little width, enough to have a buttonhole cut/stitched in or a snap riveted on.

Not a loop, which to me means a very thin piece doubled back to go over a button (A-1 style).

Button right...

tab left.

 

[Geeboo]

Is A1's tab or loop ?

 

[Skyhawk]

Yes looks just like an A-1 loop to me too.

 

[zoomer]

Is A1's tab or loop ?

Loop - a very thin strip folded lengthwise, edges stitched together, turned back on itself and sewn into the collar.

 

[Dr H]

It looks like a loop to me as well. Thicker than the A-1 loop shown, but not a tab as described.
I fancy that I can see a seam running along the front edge (and what appears to be a bulge at the base of the insert within the collar).

 

[2BM2K]

Or it could be a Goldsmith. The pocket design is radically different than the Werbers of the same period, with the double top stitching. Also the collar is a different shape. It appears the epaulet positing is different as well. I don't think we have seen this jacket close up before.

A lot of things might be different from latter contracts. For example the jacket Arnold is wearing has set-in sleeves, later Werbers had flat-sewn sleeves.

The A2 design may be still evolving at this stage.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Is A1's tab or loop ?

Same thing, different terminology....we say pavement, you say sidewalk

As I said in my first post re this A-2 collar.......like an A-1