Bill Kelso timeline of leather, with a little wear thrown in...

[dmar836]

Ole, I do understand this is more about creating trouble that understanding information but I'll give in. Vicenza has a very large tannery district so when we refer to a product as "made from Vicenza leather" I think it's safe to point to this small town as the origin. I think any of the tanneries there would be creating Vicenza leather. I imagine they feed the nearby Milan designer types more than repro jacket makers.
Shinki is actually a company name but located in a similar district in Japan.
I have never visited a tannery but I understand it is not pleasant.
Hope this is helpful,
Dave

 

[Ole]

No it's not about creating trouble. It's about sharing information that is correct, not hearsay, which can be misleading. From what I read online they don't call it Vicenza leather and Vicenza is not a small town but a province. At another forum they mentioned the tannery's name Aero buys from and it wasn't Vicenza. Also it was not Aero who calls it Vicenza but their US dealer. Aero just adopted the name as this leather was sourced by their dealer. The dealer thought to call it Vicenza because they liked the name (and not because it's the tannery's name or origin), it's in the quote I posted, didn't you see it?

Shinki is a tannery but that doesn't mean that e.g. LHJ106 leather is also Shinki. Shinki is not mentioned neither in the Available Leather page of his site nor in the order form. That shows it's not available. Just because Goodwear made jackets with Shinki before it doesn't mean that whatever you will buy from him will be Shinki.

 

[Persimmon]

Vicenza is not a province that’s Veneto

Vicenza is a city where one of my family lives so I know it exists Ole.

 

[Dr H]

No it's not about creating trouble. It's about sharing information that is correct, not hearsay, which can be misleading. From what I read online they don't call it Vicenza leather and Vicenza is not a small town but a province. At another forum they mentioned the tannery's name Aero buys from and it wasn't Vicenza. Also it was not Aero who calls it Vicenza but their US dealer. Aero just adopted the name as this leather was sourced by their dealer. The dealer thought to call it Vicenza because they liked the name (and not because it's the tannery's name or origin), it's in the quote I posted, didn't you see it?

Shinki is a tannery but that doesn't mean that e.g. LHJ106 leather is also Shinki. Shinki is not mentioned neither in the Available Leather page of his site nor in the order form. That shows it's not available. Just because Goodwear made jackets with Shinki before it doesn't mean that whatever you will buy from him will be Shinki.

I'll make one more suggestion before I leave it. John is a really helpful bloke and a member on this forum (buzzthetower). If you have strong reservations about the leather/don't believe the description...ask him.

 

[Ole]

Vicenza is a province. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Vicenza
Veneto is not a province, it is a region. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneto
There is also a city named Vicenza. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicenza

I did not say Vicenza does not exist, I said Aero's leather is not from Vicenza. They don't say it comes from Vicenza either. It's just a name they came up with for their leather.

Dr H, I do not have reservations about his leather, because I would not buy at his price and waiting time. I just said the man does not say he sells Shinki in his website.

 

[dmar836]

Yeah, I think I'll bow out of this one too. Apparently, we are to see that references to these popular leathers is only a bait and switch marketing trap exposing the buyer to potential deceit but that using "Victory" or "Liberty" leather implies a consistent source. All agree BK makes some nice jackets so there is no need to jab at everyone as if they are standing in your spotlight. Planting the seed that GW, specifically, could be substituting leathers is a shameful move IMO and shows there is obviously some other motivation here.
Don't know Ole's IP address but the tone sure rings a shrill bell.
Out!
Dave

 

[Ole]

Dave, what shameful move? quit dreaming man, I am not taking any sides.
What substituting leathers? Are you suggesting that GW uses Shinki exclusively?

 

[Ole]

edit

 

[buzzthetower]

Hi Ole,

It's me, John (Good Wear). Care to give evidence of your assertions?

Just some evidence is all I need.

Thank you,
John

 

[Ole]

Dave,

Vicenza has a very large tannery district so when we refer to a product as "made from Vicenza leather" I think it's safe to point to this small town as the origin. I think any of the tanneries there would be creating Vicenza leather.

Thanks but no, it's not safe to point to this small town as the origin because in that quote they said that their Vicenza leather is tanned in Tuscany.

 

[Earloffunk]

Just a question: where is this discussion supposed to go? To be honest I do not see the point. To see it just seems to go on a route where the as some manufacturer bashing. But that's just my 5 cents.

 

[Ole]

Hi John,

The evidence is on your website. In the "Available Leather" section there is no mention of Shinki.

In the order form there is no mention of Shinki either (whereas there is mention of other tanneries, e.g. Badalassi)

So if someone orders an A-2 jacket made with Horsehide dull russet brown LHJ102 all you need to do is to provide a jacket made with "vegetable tannage, finish semi-aniline, thickness 1.1 - 1.2mm and color dull russet brown" and you 're done with your contractual obligations, right? May I remind you that an online advertisement is an offer to sell and when someone takes it and pays you there is a contract of sale. So, no need for it to be Shinki, since Shinki is nowhere mentioned in your offer. You have not cheated anyone.


Dr H,

Where John uses Skinki in making his jackets, he states this very clearly (e.g. http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/sale_himelracer_0001.html, http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/sale_cable_0006.html). I believe that LHJ102 is actually a Shinki code rather than a Good Wear one (see the second ad. 'Shinki LHJ102 semi-aniline horsehide'). Furthermore, he's a very honourable and trustworthy guy in my experience, and that of many others on the forum. Whether you can tell the difference or not, buy with confidence.

I am not so sure that LHJ102 is a Shinki code. If you click on the "Online example" below

Takes you to this page here in which Shinki is not mentioned. In the two links you provided Shinki is mentioned but no LHJ10x code is given.

To complicate matters more, in this link here: http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/sale_combat_clone_0001.html both Shinki and LHJ102 are mentioned, only now the color is "russet" and not "dull russet brown".

So who is to say if LHJ102 is Shinki? And if Goodwear offers, Italian, Horween, Shinki etc, how one is supposed to choose which one he wants, or know which one he got, if they are not mentioned in the order form? Are these questions invalid? Should one not worry about these things?

...he's a very honourable and trustworthy guy in my experience, and that of many others on the forum...

Great. Isn't it the honest thing to do, to have one's products on offer named appropriately? So that there are no misunderstandings?

Just a question: where is this discussion supposed to go? To be honest I do not see the point. To see it just seems to go on a route where the as some manufacturer bashing. But that's just my 5 cents.

What bashing? I see only some reasonable questions.

The whole conversation started with Dave's proven wrong statement below which you guys make me feel I have no right to contend.

…or whatever cute name everyone is using on their latest delivery of hides. The highest quality makers didn't do that as they grew in followers and reputation. They used the best hides, calling them what the tannery did, and upgraded every chance they could to the best hides they could sample.

Is this a forum in which senior guys can arbitrary say whatever they want and nobody can question it?

I don't expect or ask or need any answer to the above, because as I said, I am not interested in a Goodwear jacket due to the price and waiting time, so consequently I don't care if John sells Shinki or not. I just made those observations because I saw them. Am I the only one who sees them?

 

[Dr H]

Ole, I have been in the queue to order a jacket from John for almost two years (I have purchased several jackets from him before, and I have been content to wait as the product and craftsmanship are excellent).
During our discussion about options during the initial ordering process Shinki leather was mentioned explicitly (and in follow up e-mails).

 

[Ole]

Dr H, great, I see you guys are on a first name basis with John and everybody trusts him. Well done. What about e.g. the Chinese customer, who is not a member here and does not know John and who orders from the website and does not exchange any emails with John, (so he does not particularly and explicitly ask for Shinki, like you did). What leather will he get? The LHJ 102? "vegetable tannage, finish semi-aniline, thickness 1.1 - 1.2mm and color dull russet brown", or Shinki?

See my point?

 

[Dr H]

The ordering process with John is conducted verbally/via e-mail so the selection of leather is discussed explicitly covering all the options available.
Remember, this is not an 'off the rack' service as the jackets are bespoke so, unless your hypothetical Chinese buyer were buying a sale jacket in which the leather choice could not be changed, then this discussion would inevitably happen in the early and later stages.
As I suggested before, John is on the site and has responded to your previous post, take it up with him directly (why not pick up a 'phone or use Skype and you'll be on first names too)?

 

[tibor]

Frankly, John also makes twice as many contracts as he lists. He could update the overall website, but as Dr. H noted, he makes bespoke jackets and reviews every detail ahead of time, including the leather source, type and if you’d like, samples. I view the website as a gateway, not a comprehensive list. If you take some time and look through all the “new jacket production”, you get a better feel for all the diverse offerings possible.

 

[B-Man2]

Guys
Isn't it time for SOMEONE to post the "green sign of death " for this thread. You know the one where the thread has gone totally off course.. pleassse.

 

[DiamondDave]

Dr H, great, I see you guys are on a first name basis with John and everybody trusts him. Well done. What about e.g. the Chinese customer, who is not a member here and does not know John and who orders from the website and does not exchange any emails with John, (so he does not particularly and explicitly ask for Shinki, like you did). What leather will he get? The LHJ 102? "vegetable tannage, finish semi-aniline, thickness 1.1 - 1.2mm and color dull russet brown", or Shinki?

See my point?

Ole,

I’m not sure your argument holds water my friend. Since all of Johns sales directly from the page are custom orders, and there is no “Buy It Now” button or option, you are forced to talk with him if you’d like to order. Even your fictional “Chinese customer” would have to have a modicum of English in order to do so, or at the very least start an order with John. Now conversely if you go through and buy something from his “sale page” you can see that great care is taken to inform the potential customer of what it is that he or she is buying. Lastly, John can recognize one hide from another, even years later, so I have the greatest of confidence in JC and his ability to properly sell his wares.

Ciao,

DD


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Smithy]

Shakespeare put it all very succinctly 400 years or so ago...

Much ado about nothing.

From what I know buying a GW isn't like buying a book off of Amazon, you put in your order, wait for your turn to come up and then he personally discusses with you what you want. As Tibor said, in all fairness to JC he doesn't have everything he can offer on the website. Should he put everything he can offer up on the website you can probably argue yes, but at the same time considering there's a 2 or more year waiting time this probably isn't efficacious due to how things can change over this length of time.

Good, old Shakey got it right though, storm in a teacup.

 

[Cobblers161]

I always understood the codes to John's leathers indicate the source, LHJ - Japan, LHI - India (goatskin), LHA - America (Horween).

I may be wrong and if so please enlighten me, I'd also appreciate it if someone could assist me in removing the pencil that's tightly wedged up Ole's ass.

There's certainly no intended mystery as to the source of the hides, John's a decent honest hard working craftsman and will go to great lengths to discuss all the available options.