Best B-10 repro?

[foster]

I gave a lot of thought to getting a Buzz Rickson copy of the Superior Togs with the red knits last year, but I didn't find any unquestionable evidence of originals in photographs or of surviving originals in online searches. I do think it somewhat odd that the only A-2 jackets made by Superior Togs was the first contract in 1931-32 and that was not for very many jackets. I don't think those had the berry knit, but were more brown in color. I wonder how one can reconcile there being 'leftover' knits at the contractor to be used on B-10's over a full decade later.

All that aside, the red knits on a B-10 do look quite distinctive and eccentric! But I am too much an idealist/ purist when it comes to wearing a historical copy of a jacket to buy one which I cannot know is historically accurate beyond question.

 

[mezz07]

House style A-2s are obviously not authentic, but they're very popular. I believe all the big A-2 makers have them. Then there are jackets like the Eastman Pearl Harbor line that are immensely popular but are not authentic at all. So I don't understand the hesitation to purchase a repro B-10 emulating leftover red knits intended for A-2s. Especially when a well known and respected company like Buzz Rickson's claims to have evidence of them being produced. I have faith in Buzz Rickson's excellence and attention to detail and authenticity. After all I wouldn't purchase $500-$600 nylon and cotton jackets from them if I didn't.

 

[mezz07]

If Buzz Rickson's is lying about this God help them!

 

[Peter Graham]

With all due respect mezz, without documentary proof I wouldn't believe a word either Buzz Rickson or HPA are saying but I'm just an old cynic. Don't forget, for many years Gary Eastman claimed that their Roughwear B-6 was a copy of an actual contract. It never existed.

 

[mezz07]

Ya, it's true I suppose. Until someone can produce proof that the contract existed with red knits we're just relying on the word of some guy in Tokyo. And that man wants to make money by getting an edge on the competition. Maybe he wants to make his product different, even a little flashy. Red knits sure could fit the bill for product promotion. Only time will tell I guess. I still like the knits though

 

[foster]

Popularity is one thing, and authenticity is another. I value authenticity more than popularity, but this is a subjective quality and people spend money where they want, for the things they want. The Buzz Rickson Superior Togs B-10 is a nice jacket, made of quality materials, which looks good. Many are willing to pay money for it, and I do not fault them for doing so.
But as for me and my money, if I am going to buy a jacket I want it to be as authentic as possible for the price paid - that is what I personally value as being more important. I've bought 'house' A-2 jackets before, but in time I have grown to admire the more exact replicas that are available. I am not trying to imply that a jacket maker cannot use some artistic license here and there and make something like this - there is a market for it after all (especially in Japan!).
So this is perhaps a long-winded explanation of why I am viewing this topic in the manner I write. I intend no offense to anyone who likes the red knit B-10 replicas.

 

[mezz07]

I called History Preservation Associates this morning and talked to Charles DiSipio for almost an hour about this subject of reddish colored knits on the Buzz B-10 (and other vintage military clothing). Charles has been in this business for decades and is extremely knowledgeable. Using decades of experience, deductive reasoning, original jackets to examine, etc. the reason why some B-10 jackets and other types of jackets came with reddish knits is because they were subjected to constant sunlight in the factories where they were stored prior to shipment or assembly.

Wool knit parts sat in big bins in direct sunlight for long periods waiting to be installed on jackets. Old factories had lots of windows and used natural sunlight as their primary lighting source. This sunlight often changed the original color of textiles into a different color. Burgundy brown knits would become red in color. Other browns would change into a purple like tint, etc.. This is why many original M-422As have reddish or purplish knits. The sun bleached the primitive dyes that were used back then. For example fabrics that used silver based dyes would often shift colors after sitting in direct sunlight in these factories. So the knits that were exposed to more sunlight that happened to be sitting on top in these large bins would change color while the knits on the bottom would remain their original dyed color. Many jackets were assembled with sun bleached knit parts right from the get go. So you have a B-10 that comes from the factory with dark red looking knits but if you turn the knits inside out you will see the original intended color.

In designing the Superior Togs B-10 Buzz Rickson's simply found original B-10s with dark reddish looking knits and assumed the dark red color was originally intended to be red and made a very close replica of that original. BTW Charles claims he has seen an original B-10 with red knits in person, albeit not a Superior Togs B-10. But the concept is the same. I hope this clears some things up for you guys. It sure opened my eyes. The point is that many jackets left the factory with knits that were already sun bleached and therefore dark red or purplish in color.

Now this bleaching effect can happen relatively quickly if the textile is left sitting in direct sunlight every day for a period of time. Or it can happen over decades with limited direct sunlight exposure.

Look closely at the knits on these originals and you can see that the color has changed from the original brown shade. The first is a Star Sportswear with slightly red cuffs that were originally brown. The second pic is two original M-422a jackets with purplish knits with a Bill Kelso repro in the middle.

 

[Peter Graham]

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to fall out with you or to diss your red knit B-10. They are really nice jackets but I find this really hard to believe plus it's a totally different story to the one about some contracts using left over red knits. The first photo simply shows an A-2 with replaced cuffs of a different shade and the left hand jacket in the second photo is a Gordon & Ferguson contract. The knits were made with a purplish tone to them, and not through fading. I used to own one and the colour is completely regular, on the inside too. The other jacket quite simply has lighter coloured knits. If you believe the knits were sun bleached in a large bin, how come the colour is the same all over, including the cuffs ?

 

[mezz07]

The whole idea of using leftover red A-2 knits on B-10s is false I believe despite what the Buzz catalog says. My understanding is that no B-10s, A-2, or M-422s were ever intentionally produced with Reddish or purplish knits. It was something that happened as a result of large bins of brown or green silver dyed wool being left in direct sunlight for long periods of time. I think you would be very surprised if you saw the color changes that can occur. For example I heard a story of a large bolt of rayon that looked exactly like the lining used in M-422s, wine red. Upon further inspection and after unrolling the bolt it turned out the fabric down a few layers was actually blue! These dye methods and inconsistencies don't exist much anymore, so it can be a little hard to grasp at first.

The above pictures are not a testament to my explanation, they are simply examples of what I perceive as possible fading/sun bleaching so you can more easily picture in your mind what I'm talking about. I don't own these jackets and haven't examined them in person.

What I'm really talking about is the explanation that old time flight jackets left the factory with sun-bleached knit parts that were sometimes drastically different in color than intended. And different in color than other wool parts leaving the factory that wasn't sitting in the sun. This is why some B-10s had dark red knits instead of their intended color.

I'm sorry, I don't want to offend you, but Gordon & Ferguson M-422s were produced with brown knits. Here is a picture of a G&F M-422a with original unfaded brown knits, so it's silly to think some were made purple intentially. Compare this pic with the G&F on the far left in the photo I posted above of the 3 jackets:

 

[mezz07]

As an addendum to what I said think about how mouton fur fades from brown to a honey color over time and how some B-10s bleach to a khaki color instead of their intended OD green. I think most people understand how garments fade over decades. My posts are more about this process happening faster and more virulent because of nonstop direct sunlight exposure for long periods of time while sitting around in these old building with large windows and highly reactive primitively dyed textiles.

 

[Dr H]

Jeff (Rotenhahn) and I had a long discussion/correspondence over something similar (UV/acid accelerated colour channeling knits from blue to redder shades in nylon jackets).

 

[Peter Graham]

I'm sorry, I don't want to offend you, but Gordon & Ferguson M-422s were produced with brown knits. Here is a picture of a G&F M-422a with original unfaded brown knits, so it's silly to think some were made purple intentially. Compare this pic with the G&F on the far left in the photo I posted above of the 3 jackets:

This is getting interesting. I'm going to be silly then because I think significant numbers of G&F M-422a's were intentionally made with purplish knits. What you're not explaining is the uniformity of the so called fading. If there was, say, a bin of waistbands and a bin of cuffs, what manner would the waistband have to be stored in the bin to achieve a uniform fade throughout the knit, both sides. Same goes for the cuffs. Here's the G&F jacket I owned. Notice the uniform shade and the cuffs are the exact same colour as the waistband.



This is a very interesting discussion that others who don't check the cloth threads often may be interested in so I'm going to link it to general discussion.

 

[foster]

How will sunlight evenly fade a roll of fabric, in this case knit waistband knit material? It would have been produced onto a roll, delivered on a roll, and for convenience stored on a roll.
My background is in textiles, and I must admit I do not understand how green dyed wool, even with different dye technique, can fade to red from sunlight exposure. I own a green wool jacket from the 19th century which became sun faded over years where it was hanging on a rack in a costume store window. It lightened in color, but did not change to a different color altogether. This color difference from sun fading is limited only to where there was exposed fabric for the sunlight to take its effect. If there is sun fading of this extent it renders the wool very fragile, and it would not have worked as a knit when stretched (even the jacket assembly process would reveal the knit to be unusable).

It is more likely not due to sunlight, but if anything it would be due to improper dyeing in the first place. When dyeing wool, in the traditional manner, if the temperature of the dye bath is off, the dye process can yield incorrect results. This is a more likely explanation, in my opinion.

 

[Dr H]

I won't rehearse the whole discussion, but sunlight can supply enough energy to break chemical bonds in threads/textiles/fabrics; generate sequences of bonds between carbon atoms that shift the wavelength at which it absorbs the 'light' to longer wavelength (towards the red end of the spectrum). This means that we perceive that the colour get warmer (greener/yellowed/redder) depending on the amount of reaction.
Throw in traces of acid (water in the atmosphere/damp storage/sweat) and it'll happen more quickly.

 

[Roughwear]

I used to own the original Star and replaced the knits!

If you read Gary Eastman's A2 Flight Jacket book it is clear that the colour of knits differed considerably from manufacturer to manufacturer. Knits were supplied in vast quantities from various knitting mills organised by Material Command. There was a tight quality control system in place and I do not buy into the theory that berry knits were originally brown but have changed colour due to exposure to sunlight etc... They were made that way. Can an olive green set of knits for a B-10 become transformed into a berry colour? Of course knits fade over time but not sufficiently to be transformed during the time period from production to be installed on a B-10 in the War. The argument that Superior Togs used some surplus berry knits originally intended for Aero A2s is interesting but documentary proof is need. I am still waiting to see pictures of a Wartime produced B-10 with factory fitted berry knits............

 

[mezz07]

Peter Graham,
Your M-422a is beautiful and the purplish knits add to its intrigue. It's interesting that your G&F is purplish on the front and the back of the wool parts. Improper dying of the wool by the knit supplier may be a likely cause. Improper dying techniques are usually more subtle that the UV bleaching of the old fashioned dyes.

But the highly reactive sun bleaching of the old dyes is what I'm trying to introduce into the discussion. Blue bleaching into red, green turning tan, russet turning red, dark browns and greens turning red.

I don't claim to know the causes of every scenario. I simply want to introduce information that most seem not to be aware of and to answer the question about why some B-10s had dark red knits from the factory.

I think it's fascinating that your knits are purplish while most pics of original M-422s I come across are brown. It's definitely a mystery. But the point I'm trying to make about purplish M-422 knits is that they were intended to be brown. If they are purplish something happened to them that wasn't intended.

 

[TankBuster]

I used to own the original Star and replaced the knits!

If you read Gary Eastman's A2 Flight Jacket book it is clear that the colour of knits differed considerably from manufacturer to manufacturer. Knits were supplied in vast quantities from various knitting mills organised by Material Command. There was a tight quality control system in place and I do not buy into the theory that berry knits were originally brown but have changed colour due to exposure to sunlight etc... They were made that way. Can an olive green set of knits for a B-10 become transformed into a berry colour? Of course knits fade over time but not sufficiently to be transformed during the time period from production to be installed on a B-10 in the War. The argument that Superior Togs used some surplus berry knits originally intended for Aero A2s is interesting but documentary proof is need. I am still waiting to see pictures of a Wartime produced B-10 with factory fitted berry knits............

Exactly my thoughts Andrew. Anyone can claim "what if this" or "maybe that", honestly I don't buy either version. If there ever was a original B-10 found with red knits, I would put my money on a field repair with A-2 knits over anything else.

For the record, I think it is a really cool jacket and I dig the red knits on a B-10. I just don't think they came out of a factory that way!

 

[mezz07]

I used to own the original Star and replaced the knits!

If you read Gary Eastman's A2 Flight Jacket book it is clear that the colour of knits differed considerably from manufacturer to manufacturer. Knits were supplied in vast quantities from various knitting mills organised by Material Command. There was a tight quality control system in place and I do not buy into the theory that berry knits were originally brown but have changed colour due to exposure to sunlight etc... They were made that way. Can an olive green set of knits for a B-10 become transformed into a berry colour? Of course knits fade over time but not sufficiently to be transformed during the time period from production to be installed on a B-10 in the War. The argument that Superior Togs used some surplus berry knits originally intended for Aero A2s is interesting but documentary proof is need. I am still waiting to see pictures of a Wartime produced B-10 with factory fitted berry knits............

Yes, I realize now that the Star pictured above simply had the knits replaced by you. That is not in question. Like I said I was only trying to help visualize the fading process and I incorrectly identified your Star as being a likely candidate for fading.

I know you are knowledgeable about flight jackets sir, but with all due respect you believe there was "a tight quality control system in place"? Why then do jackets from the same contract vary greatly one from another? Different hides, different zippers, different knits have been seen on the same contract time and time again.

Dark green and brownish knits definitely can react with the sun and other elements and produce very different colors because of the reactive dyes used if left in direct sunlight too long. Blue into reddish, Brown into reddish, and perhaps even a dark green into a reddish tint. The dying techniques have changed as have the production and supply methods. So it's pointless to compare today's techniques. These were the old days when things were done very differently.

 

[mezz07]

Exactly my thoughts Andrew. Anyone can claim "what if this" or "maybe that", honestly I don't buy either version. If there ever was a original B-10 found with red knits, I would put my money on a field repair with A-2 knits over anything else.

Charles DiSipio at HPA has handled an original B-10 with reddish knits. When turned inside out the knits were their original intended color. So this precludes a "field repair". I believe Charles and therefore it settles the matter for me.

Thank you all for your interesting input. I did hope to enlighten some folks on here, but the proud do not take correction easily. I on the other hand changed my opinion after I heard evidence of the sun bleaching effect. I originally believed the red knits to be leftovers. My knowledge will continue to grow because I embrace knowledge and new information. I hope one day to prove this assertion about the reddish B-10 knits.

Thanks Dr H for your input.

 

[Roughwear]

Indeed there was a tight quality control system in place, but this did not mean hides from different tanneries could not be used for example. If you read Gary Eastman's book you will see why different zips, knits and leather were used even in the same contract.

Aero's later A2 contracts were for 50,000 jackets and berry knits were used in vast quantities. I can't imagine they were originally brown and then turned red quickly when exposed to sun light. The consistency of the berry shade also suggests this was the colour when finished in the knitting mills. Examples of knits from those knitting mills bidding for contracts with the US government were inspected prior to the award of a contract and batches of the finished garments were also inspected to ensure they matched the spec and were suitable to be used as flying gear.