1931 GOLDSMITH A-2 Limited Edition of 25

[Ken at Aero Leather]

i concur regarding the gs a-2 length. as early a-2s tended to be slightly longer, and often narrower then war time a-2s, it would seem to me that the proto goldsmith a-2 would have set into motion those design elements. from the many pix that have been in this on going thread, it looks to me that the sleeves were rotated and inset. naturally, this would have some bearing on how the shoulder seams, epaulets, and back would be constructed. prob: no pix of the backs of the gs a-2s. though not mentioned in the threads is a design element that i would assume to be part of the gs build, based on other early a-2s. and, that is that the zipper would most likely have been jetted on both interior sides. again, prob: no pix to confirm.

Based on the (admittedly scant) photographic evidence and my not inconsequential experience of garment construction I disagree that the sleeves would have been rotated. Given the two options, construction detailling around the head of the Goldsmith sleeve would suggest otherwise but that's very technical, more obvious to the layman is the pic showing Hap's armpit which shows a faint seam edge that some have (IMO) mistaken for the undersleeve seam, after much study I'm convinced the edge/seam is the edge of the armhole seam curve, not the sleeve seam. Years of pattern cutting have lead me to this conclusion.
As Aero make ten times as many rotated sleeve designs than we make flat sleeve jackets it would have been more obvious and easier for us to have gone down that route

 

[Technonut2112]

I played with the contrast, then colorized this. In this one, I can't tell for certain if the sleeves were rotated and inset or not.. Also, wasn't it determined earlier that the epaulets were centered over the shoulder seam? If so, wouldn't it make sense for Goldsmith to go with the given single-piece back spec?

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Have we seen pictures of the back of the Goldsmith?
As it’s a crossover from the A1 jacket could it have the same seamed back ?

Theoretically, yes.
Unless/until evidence to the contrary should emerge we felt it's fair to assume the back would be on different from all the other contracts this one spawned

 

[2BM2K]

Have we seen pictures of the back of the Goldsmith?
As it’s a crossover from the A1 jacket could it have the same seamed back ?

There is a photo of the prototype A2 jacket, preceeding the Goldsmith, which partly shows the back. Does not appear to be a back seam.

 

[2BM2K]

The SAT jacket does have a rotated sleeve which may indicate that the Goldsmith was of similar construction.
It is worth looking at SAT photo's to see how the seam lies.

In the hotel photo the seam on the fore arm is clearly visible and straight. If it was flat sewn it would be impossible to see.

 

[Technonut2112]

Hmmmm.. I wonder if the jacket to the left with a button-flap may be a Goldsmith? This pic of 'Hap' with Bebe Daniels was supposedly taken pre-1935:

https://dmairfield.com/people/arnold_hh/index.htm

 

[Geeboo]

Is the epaulet centred over the shoulder seam or like werber - inclined back but with the epp's rear in parallel with the inclined shoulder seam => which one is yours Ken ?

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Is the epaulet centred over the shoulder seam or like werber - inclined back but with the epp's rear in parallel with the inclined shoulder seam => which one is yours Ken ?

Centred, hidden shoulder seam, the top stitch on the armhole/sleeve missing the epaulette is the clincher, no need to do it that way if the shoulder seam was Werber style, this is one of those features that were ripe for improvement

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

The SAT jacket does have a rotated sleeve which may indicate that the Goldsmith was of similar construction.
It is worth looking at SAT photo's to see how the seam lies.

In the hotel photo the seam on the fore arm is clearly visible and straight. If it was flat sewn it would be impossible to see.

If the sleeve was rotated the front edge of the sleeves wouldn't be cut in a straight line (like all flat sleeves), check the creasing, they'd be lightly curved and if they were curved it's almost certain the (longer) inside curve (top sleeve edge) would sit proud on the seam, the under seam is sitting proud on Hap's like the vast majority of flat fitted sleeves even though it's a 50/50 chance which way the selvedge will fold on a flat sleeve

PS The seam on Hap's A-2 is obviously a straight line

 

[zoomer]

Hmmmm.. I wonder if the jacket to the left with a button-flap may be a Goldsmith? This pic of 'Hap' with Bebe Daniels was supposedly taken pre-1935:

https://dmairfield.com/people/arnold_hh/index.htm


View attachment 8757



View attachment 8760

I managed to date that pic to fall, 1932. Bebe and husband Ben Lyon were big aviation boosters - Ben did some of his own flying for Hell’s Angels - and they made multiple visits to March around that time.

That pocket certainly suggests Goldy and is the side seam double stitched too?

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

I managed to date that pic to fall, 1932. Bebe and husband Ben Lyon were big aviation boosters - Ben did some of his own flying for Hell’s Angels - and they made multiple visits to March around that time.

That pocket certainly suggests Goldy and is the side seam double stitched too?

Could be...... or a wider topstitch as on the collar and armholes? Need a blow up to confirm either way, no sign of double stitch on sleeve, nor of a back seam/two piece back, pic seems to have nailed that question

 

[2BM2K]

The more that I look at this photo the more it looks like the prototype A2. The prototype does have wider stching on the pocket and arm hole.
The arm seam is low down on the arm as found on a rotated sleeve.

The photo looks to be part of a series dated Oct 30 1932 taken at Long Beach;

https://www.af.mil/News/Photos/igphoto/2000595275/

 

[zoomer]

There is only one other pic displaying at the link.

And is that line down the arm a seam or just a crease?

 

[2BM2K]

That is the only picture II could find but feel that there should be others, maybe not on line.
Seam. There should be a seam visible from the angle the photo is taken and there is only one contender.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

One thing I've learned doing research is that even when one is certain about a fact, new evidence can put that "certainty" into question and any decent researcher will heed contradictory evidence.
Based on the straight front edge seam on the sleeve of Hap's A-2 in the first photo, all I've learnt about pattern construction told me this guaranteed a flat sleeve fitting.
The latest photo showing what is most likely to be a Goldsmith, shows a line on the sleeve, which is probably the back seam on the sleeve, the position of which would suggest a rotated sleeve as the seam is probably too far down the back for a flat seam.....or the undersleeve is quite narrow (very possible)....or the pattern cutter didn't understand the anatomy of the arm and fitted a straight edge seam onto a rotated sleeve pattern?
It's a great pity Goldsmith weren't an exerienced leather company as that would help rule out "technical errors" such as the line of the undersleeve
What's the difference? The curve on a rotated sleeve is why so many prefer the feel of an A-2 with such sleeve fitting, it is more natural, look at YOUR arm right now, dead straight or curved?
The feel has nothing to do with the positioning of the sleeve in the armhole, rotated or not, take the curve away from the sleeve and that natural "feel" has gone
A curve can't be used on a flat sleeve, it would be in the wrong place, and similarily a straight seam on a rotated seam negates the benefit of the curve
I'm going to cut a rotated sleeve pattern with a straight front edge over the weekend to see if I can finally solve the mystery

Of course a pic of Hap Arnold doing a Slam Dunk or a high five while wearing his A-2 would save everyone a lot of grief

 

[Technonut2112]

I'm going to cut a rotated sleeve pattern with a straight front edge over the weekend to see if I can finally solve the mystery

Sounds like a winner Ken... It's great there's still time to tweak the pattern to the best representation of available photos... What about the wide top (or double)-stitching on the side-seams? I kind of like that feature, and it would certainly set the jacket apart..

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Sounds like a winner Ken... It's great there's still time to tweak the pattern to the best representation of available photos... What about the wide top (or double)-stitching on the side-seams? I kind of like that feature, and it would certainly set the jacket apart..

The basic pattern is finished, all the grading notes done, etc, changing the sleeve, should we need to, is a very simple procedure, just involves moving the seam position on the "tube" that is the sleeve, whether any change is just at the back or on both seams, apart from getting it historically correct, there would be no benefit either way, no change in feel/fit due to the straight from edges, just visual.
First jackets aren't due to be cut until mid October so plenty time to introduce any new "proof"

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

What about the wide top (or double)-stitching on the side-seams? I kind of like that feature, and it would certainly set the jacket apart..

We need to confirm which it is, but the fact that the horizontal seam on the pocket flap & top stitch on the collar are wide single would suggest a wide top stitch on the side seam
Similar to the 1756 contract

 

[2BM2K]

I'm going to cut a rotated sleeve pattern with a straight front edge over the weekend to see if I can finally solve the mystery

Thanks for doing that, probably the only way to solve the puzzle.

Not many contracts used a rotated sleeve; SAT, Fried Ostermann, Monarch and Spiewak. I have a feeling that
the original drawing called for rotated sleeve.

Here is a nice photo of a Monarch showing the seams.

 

[33-1729]

One thing I've learned doing research is that even when one is certain about a fact, new evidence can put that "certainty" into question and any decent researcher will heed contradictory evidence.
Based on the straight front edge seam on the sleeve of Hap's A-2 in the first photo, all I've learnt about pattern construction told me this guaranteed a flat sleeve fitting.
The latest photo showing what is most likely to be a Goldsmith, shows a line on the sleeve, which is probably the back seam on the sleeve, the position of which would suggest a rotated sleeve as the seam is probably too far down the back for a flat seam.....or the undersleeve is quite narrow (very possible)....or the pattern cutter didn't understand the anatomy of the arm and fitted a straight edge seam onto a rotated sleeve pattern?
It's a great pity Goldsmith weren't an exerienced leather company as that would help rule out "technical errors" such as the line of the undersleeve
What's the difference? The curve on a rotated sleeve is why so many prefer the feel of an A-2 with such sleeve fitting, it is more natural, look at YOUR arm right now, dead straight or curved?
The feel has nothing to do with the positioning of the sleeve in the armhole, rotated or not, take the curve away from the sleeve and that natural "feel" has gone
A curve can't be used on a flat sleeve, it would be in the wrong place, and similarily a straight seam on a rotated seam negates the benefit of the curve
I'm going to cut a rotated sleeve pattern with a straight front edge over the weekend to see if I can finally solve the mystery

Of course a pic of Hap Arnold doing a Slam Dunk or a high five while wearing his A-2 would save everyone a lot of grief

The key item to note is that the timing and company of Lt Col Arnold strongly suggest an issued A-2 Goldsmith while the other recently shown photograph is an unknown, especially given the various A-1/2-ish jacket jackets shown thus far from early 30's photographs on this site (prototypes and/or private purchase). Given you see a flat sleeve fitting on the clear Lt Col Arnold photograph (and know worlds more than I do about pattern construction), I'd discount the other recently shown photograph suggesting a rotated sleeve given the questionable provenance.

I, along with Technonut2112, do like the idea of a wide (or double) stitch side seam and recall the 1756 is a favorite of yours.