1931 GOLDSMITH A-2 Limited Edition of 25

[Geeboo]

#202 - do not agree. my pointed already stated.
" a fair % of the leather collar is standing up above the collar stand ..." If the red circle is what U refer to, this part will not fold out even your jkt is unzipped/ half - zipped, no matter what

Look at Hap's collar's left side, that portion is still there & at the same time, compare the width of the turnaround and the shoulder width on the right side against yours.

 

[Persimmon]

View attachment 9122 View attachment 9117 View attachment 9121 The collar is the major "flaw", IMO - believe it or not
I don't know if U buy this: the turnaround should be about 1/2 of the pocket's width ~7cm -7.5cm - my wild guess. The collar perimeter of the photo shows it is larger than "normal"
P.S. compare the ratio of the yellow line & the orange line to figure out how large is the collar. Also noted I have enlarge d the collar in my sample in the 3rd trial - I am just an amateur, Ken.

Are you saying that the sample jacket made by Ken at Aero is too small in depth of leather in comparison to the original ?

If so then whilst not 100% historical accurate I would prefer the Aero ( Ken ) version.
It’s all very well having ever stitch being perfect although that’s hard to work out anyway with no actual original or samples but to have it looking like that is almost unwearable.

And the reason if the Goldsmith had this massive collar it was later superseded in various A2 contracts.

I guess if you just want to display it on a mannequin fine but if you buy the modern repro jacket to actually wear then some element of compromise ( and their is no actual original to prove it anyway ) is acceptable.

 

[Technonut2112]

The original design idea for the collar was probably along the lines of a leather replacement to the knit A-1 collar which serves the same functionality. How well does the Aero Goldsmith collar cradle around the neck to eliminate drafts, and does it give adequate coverage up to the jawline when raised, and buttoned?

 

[Geeboo]

#204- agreed - all is our guess on how a Goldsmith should look like. NO original found to proof. That's also why my GS project is on hold at the moment. The bottom line is: we have just got these photos, go or no go ?
If go, continue with this silly game, then the Q is: Does the retro looks exactly like the photos ?
If no go => end of conversation.
What I want to say is [ I know this might not be welcomed here], when you look at many/ most of Goodwear's retro, I have a feeling of "wow", that really looks like a deadstock of an A2, stitch by stitch correct, all proportion correct, all details correct. There just lack this factor in Ken's prototype so far, yet.
Ah, miss 1 sentence - nothing beats the original. If one wants compromise, why not buy a mall's A2 ? that is an extreme example. Is MA-1's baggy sleeves wearable ? Have you trim down the sleeves ?
Agree that a certain "adjustment" s in cut is acceptable, but the proportion in ken's this prototype is way out that it almost wipe out I reckon one of the main features of this jacket - the big collar. Eg: The shortness of L-2a/ L-2b. The buckiness of tanker jackets, The bagginess of MA-1 sleeves, the width of B-15 mouton collar - there are JUST so many of these features that collectors want about a particular item. It is ok for one to say " I don't like L-2a because it is too short for my height".
But the question is : What is a retro ?

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

This is getting like arguing over the size of John Dillinger's weapon from this picture, and yes there are other pics available ;>)

 

[Technonut2112]

#204- agreed - all is our guess on how a Goldsmith should look like. NO original found to proof. That's also why my GS project is on hold at the moment.
What I want to say is [ I know this might not be welcomed here], when you look at many/ most of Goodwear's retro, I have a feeling of "wow", that really looks like a deadstock of an A2, stitch by stitch correct, all proportion correct, all details correct. There just lack this factor in Ken's prototype so far, yet.
Ah, miss 1 sentence - nothing beats the original. If one wants compromise, why not buy a mall's A2 ? that is an extreme example

Well, considering that no more samples will be made to preserve the LE, myself, and other folks who ordered will just have to trust in Ken's and Aero's experience of many years in the business to make these jackets special... TBH, the 'Wow' factor to me is that Aero even took-on a Limited Edition run of this nature at all for a military jacket. Despite any small 'inaccuracies' copying a jacket which never has been seen in-the-flesh only going by a scant few pics, there will still only be a very limited # patterned by Ken / Aero in the entire world... Any maker who takes these on will have their own twist on it. Other than Good Wear and Eastman, Aero is the only other maker out there who interests me enough to go 'full-tilt-boogie' with my meager funds to own a Goldsmith repro.. EDIT: Forgot to throw a nod to BK, if indeed they ever make one.. No offense to other makers out there.. When parting with 'significant' $$ these days for most any 'luxury' item, I tend to sway towards the established, more widely-known companies in case emergency or necessity forces a future sale..

 

[zoomer]

Some compromises are made with a manufacturer’s eye, rather than a wearer’s. Manufacturers may instinctively want to make things more wearable/salable - meaning more within modern norms of proportion and looks.

At this level of perception there is no “just a little.” Unless there’s a gap or obvious pucker, adjustments suggest themselves at arm’s length - in terms of at least half-inches and maybe inches.

The unique dimensions of any part may become an Achilles’ heel - or even be made one unwittingly. IIRC Ken’s first suss for the collar depth was 6” - clearly excessive, but the instinctual next move would be to opt closer to normal than to unique.

 

[zoomer]

This photograph is small, low definition and certainly not good enough to rely on for detailed analysis.



The colouriser is only a crude tool, seems to identify areas and picks nearest colour. Not intended to identify a specific colour
but to give the photo a coloured look.

does anyone REALLY think auto colorizers are capable of this level of accuracy???

 

[zoomer]

This is getting like arguing over the size of John Dillinger's weapon from this picture, and yes there are other pics available ;>)

View attachment 9135

If Hap Arnold had a cold weather suit on over his Goldy your analogy would be spot-on.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

IIRC Ken’s first suss for the collar depth was 6” -.

I think not?......................Probably the last time I put a 6" collar on a leather jacket Tricky Dickie would have been in The White House, and I'd thank you not to remind me of some of these garments

 

[Technonut2112]

This kind of reminds me of the good ol' days at Club Obi Wan... Everyone straining their eyes at grainy screenshots, attempting to solve all of the mysteries of the Indiana Jones Raiders jacket, and the subsequent incarnations that followed. Many folks must have absolutely driven poor Peter Botwright (RIP) insane with their arm's long laundry-list of the latest 'uncovered' specs to be included in their custom jackets...

Not really that bad here at all, with much fewer seen details, but some of this discussion had me reminiscing about those days..

 

[33-1729]

does anyone REALLY think auto colorizers are capable of this level of accuracy???

No. False colorization software freely available on the web is simplistic and typically unreliable. However...

Colorblind chemists can use colored pH paper by comparing the result against a number of pre-made pH test samples, e.g., one for 7.0 pH, 7.1 pH, 7.2 pH. etc. Even though all of the pH samples are perceived in a grey scale to the color blind chemist, the relative comparison to a known sample can provide quite accurate results. I'm not color blind, but one of my chemistry professors told me this tidbit during one of the labs.

That can be applied here, where the other two A-2's in the photograph are a SAT 32-485 and Werber 33-1729 and their typical coloration is well documented. Col. Howard's SAT 32-485 is expected to be darker than Brig Gen Westover's Werber 33-1729 and it is in the original photograph too (link below). Even with the across photograph lighting variation it's pretty clear that Arnold's A-2 is closer to the lighter russet Werber 33-1729 than the darker SAT 32-485, just by comparing their relative grey scale.

Original Photo - https://dl.library.ucla.edu/islandora/object/edu.ucla.library.specialCollections.latimes:8134

 

[Silver Surfer]

over the years of having owned or handled original pre war a-2s,i found that the vast majority were in a russet or light russet color. on occasion, one would pop up that was darker, [not seal] like a mid darker russet. often, the early ones sent back to the makers were redyed russet. seems that it changed sometime after 1942, when jackets went to depots as well as factories and were all redyed or painted seal brown. my money is on russet or light being the color of the gs a-2. i have noticed that in the pix, haps gs has unusually short sleeves [or he had orang arms], not unlike the first and second w&g m-422 jackets. i cant imagine any repro maker wanting to copy short sleeves, so some sleeve length compromise would be in order.

 

[Technonut2112]

i cant imagine any repro maker wanting to copy short sleeves, so some sleeve length compromise would be in order.

THAT I can agree on... What do you think Ken?

 

[stanier]

Geeboo, completely off topic and apologies to all, but what do the #numbers mean at the start of each post?

I have the feeling it should be obvious to me, but it isn’t and my curiosity has got the better of me!

I noticed the same on the t shirt thread.

 

[Persimmon]

His post numbering system

 

[33-1729]

Looking at the picture of Billy Mitchell with Hap Arnold (link below), it appears the zipper rivet in the waist band is fairly large and dark in color (not bright and shiny as on the Aero Goldsmith test jacket in post #1). Can someone identify it? The waist band detail is not available in the other picture with Lt Col Arnold.

Mitchell & Arnold Photo - http://content.lib.auburn.edu/cdm/ref/collection/eddier/id/334

P.S. I don't think the sleeves are short, but that Lt Col Arnold is taller than normal.

 

[Silver Surfer]

what i wrote about re: short sleeves is not about the hap being tall, it was to point out that the sleeves [certainly in relation to the body length] are short. this is how the first 2 w&g m422 jackets were MADE. an interesting and inexplicable detail. i suspect that the gs sleeves were made short, why? dunno, but it was done on some early us flight jackets.

 

[zoomer]

i suspect that the gs sleeves were made short, why? dunno, but it was done on some early us flight jackets.

Perhaps to test the practicality of a sleeve with varying lengths of knit, rather than hide. Smaller hides could be used and a few standard lengths/widths cut, all to save a few bux. Always a prime concern then, and all the more important given that the more costly leather collar and zipper had already been settled on for Type A-2.

Now W&G’s M-422 I’ve heard 2 separate stories about. One is that BuAer wanted to encourage aircrew to wear gauntlets in flight, and speced extra short sleeves to ensure they would be needed! The other is just that some kind of mistake was made - nature unknown.

Maybe it was another knit-for-leather economy move. The Navy bought no leather flight clothing from 1932-'39 for cost reasons. Or maybe it’s just that the bodies were cut longer and the sleeves appear shorter! Few can have had the chance to examine an original - let alone measure one.

 

[Geeboo]

About the large collar perimeter:
1) When I 1st receive my custom-made French chore style jacket, I almost want to return it because it just look like a women's jacket.
2) However, when I took fitted pics, the outlook is quite alright [compare the period French pic] . Maybe just 2cm large in perimeter - not outrageously large. Not unwearable IF i want the period french workers look, the collar indeed NEEDS to be that large - my original estimate is correct. I have not overlooked this details.
3) I guess the reason for this large collar perimeter in GS is that Hap's can comfortably button up the loop of the jacket while accommodating the full of the tie knot [quite thick] which itself was also being pushed up a bit by the shirt's loop/tab.
4) Not an apple to apple compare, but when U compare the French jkt in the photo which was also worn with a knotted tie [ the yellow curve in Hap's photo] & then further compare with my retro jkt, it might give you an idea how large should the collar perimeter be. It is like my 1st impression on my French jacket - an unwearable large collar, like a women's jkt. Agree this measurement could be adjusted by individual makers, but I think the underlying features [large] should not be completely wiped off or get un-noticed.
5) I think I had said more than enough about the cutting of the pattern for this jacket which normal end-users would not have to bother with & I think I have clearly illustrated my point. IF I had offended anyone & if it were off the topic, here is my apology.

P.S. This is post no. #220
I think flattery wins over facts at the end.
Post number #215: I would like to know which WORD is related to this topic in your post number #215; if mine were completely off
"Geeboo, completely off topic and apologies to all, but what do the #numbers mean at the start of each post?
I have the feeling it should be obvious to me, but it isn’t and my curiosity has got the better of me!
I noticed the same on the t shirt thread."