What About SHOULDER RANK

[RayR]

Please educate me on proper use of shoulder rank on WWII A-2 jackets. I know :geek:

I have seen officers showing no shoulder marks. I have see some which appear to be painted on bars. I have seen what appears to be sewn on patches over the top of the box stitching on the shoulder...both with painted or colored leather bars.

* Which is correct?

* Is it impossible to sew on the rank after the jacket is assembled?

* Is it proper or has it been done to use the metal pin on rank? And what about messing up the leather with holes?

Like I said, I need education on this topic and will appreciate any knowledgeable comments and illustrations you would share :!:

Here's one sewn on and faded:

 

[dmar836]

Typically, it was done as shown with silver or gold paint. I assume those were PX items. I have seen metal rank insignia on A-2s but not very often. I wouldn't buy one with metal rank(just like wings) without plenty of accompanying provenance. I think none was okay too as this was an official rank location on service jackets and shirt epaulets but not on an A-2. I don't know if this was a later revision or not but it would be the logical place for insignia just as the front of a ball cap was the logical place for insignia. Not done when the jacket is made.
MO,
Dave

 

[a2jacketpatches]

That one looks like the issued foil / leather LT Bar. A had a set from the Navigator of the Argonia (D-Day C-47) a ways back but I think someone lifted it while looking through my case one day. Resembled the silver foil of a Wrigleys spearmint gum wrapper glued to the leather rectangle or squares in the case of oakleaves and Full Bird Colonel. The set I had was never stitched to his jacket and he had two in his pile that he claimed were issued. I vividly remember the foil starting to lift, I could have easily peeled it off. It was almost like the sticky of that blue painters tape that's meant to be easily removed. Very typical to see the without the foil and considering an unused set was lifting from age alone I always assume something like youe picture is exactly that and not painted. Alternatively, they were painted on, metal ones used, theater made multi-piece leather, and I've even seen cloth and bullion used.

Here's a few -

 

[jack31916]

The shoulder rankbadges or insignia are listed in listed in the U.S. Army Air Forces illustrated Catalog, Class 13, septmber 30,1943. Stock no. code 8300 serial 459000 (General) to 466000 (2nd Lieutenant). The used materials are not mentioned. I used to own a pair of Captain bars, embroidered in white thread on a piece of horsehide or cattlehide. Now I do have a pair of 1st Lieutenant bars embroidered in bullion on what seems like goatskin.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

I'm thinking yours may be reproductions as I don't recall seeing anything embroidered onto leather. Any photos of them?

 

[dmar836]

Does the Class 13 show them in leather?

 

[unclegrumpy]

I could not get my hands on my Class 13 Catalog to post a picture.

The foil on leather examples that Sean posted are a US made version that were issued. However, I don't think they were the only type that were issued during the war, because there is a thin leather on leather type that is commonly seen, and is also US made.

This also leaves out the theatre made rank insignia, most notably the layered leather pieces made in the CBI, and rank that was directly painted onto the jacket, which you often see in the ETO...but not exclusively so.

As far the embroidered on leather rank insignia, that is generally considered to be postwar, but I do not know the exact date it started to be used. For sure by the Korean war, and you do occasionally see them on A-2's from that period, but it was not common place.

One tip off, is the earlier versions are on brown leather, but I am pretty sure those did not come into use until very late or more likely postwar....and not on A-2's because they were "obsolete", but rather flight suits and cloth flight jackets. What complicates all of this, is it is often very hard to know if the examples of WW II flight gear we see today were locked up since August of 1945, or were kept being worn after the war, where they were then patched with newer style insignia.

Metal insignia may have been used here and there, but not likely by anyone in an airplane, because of the chance of it hanging up in other flight gear. Mostly, I think metal insignia is something the vets put on their jackets long after they retired, to up grade their jackets to the highest rank they attained.

Lastly, I think the most interesting thing about rank insignia on A-2's that has not been mentioned, is how rarely you see it actually being worn on jackets. I am not saying it is "rare", but given the number of Officers, percentage wise it is not that common....probably largely due to the hassle factor of putting it on and keeping it current.

 

[foster]

I was told it was not allowed for metal insignia to be pinned through a flight jacket, as it would allow the cold to conduct through the metal. This is apparently why the B-3 had the tabs at the shoulder. But I have to question that, as the zippers were metal... But also, when putting on a chute harness the metal rank would easily be dislodged.

I have a friend who found bullion embroidered Major's rank on a piece of leather in a pocket of an A-2 in his collection. He obtained the jacket in the 1960's and didn't know the patches were in there for some time. As to when these were placed in the pocket, we can only speculate.

I think the practice of sewing rank patches on the shoulders was impractical, though we do find examples of it being done. Seems as though it is a thick part of the jacket to sew another patch to, and it was easy and expedient to simply paint the rank on the epaulette directly if desired.

 

[CBI]

all good info. Unless the jacket is for reenacting, I would not suggest adding it to a jacket. That's when you get Vets, active duty people giving you grief about it. I have seen this first hand on many occasions.

 

[unclegrumpy]

all good info. Unless the jacket is for reenacting, I would not suggest adding it to a jacket. That's when you get Vets, active duty people giving you grief about it. I have seen this first hand on many occasions.

Excellent point, one I totally agree with.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

all good info. Unless the jacket is for reenacting, I would not suggest adding it to a jacket. That's when you get Vets, active duty people giving you grief about it. I have seen this first hand on many occasions.

Excellent point, one I totally agree with.

What about the majority of re-enacting where stripes and Officer insignia are worn in great #'s as opposed to a few flight jackets here and there? As per Air Force regs, you simply cannot wear your name with the USAF tape on fatigues if a civilian, and nobody wears current issue class A's anyway as a civilian. You can wear U.S.Air Force or a name. And any unit patches or rank you want as long as a name is not coupled with USAF. At least that's what I was debriefed on in 1991. So any active duty guy getting upset over re-enacting a historic event using obsolete insignia needs to find a hobby or something, and I would explain to any vet of WW2 etc. it is in his honor and one of the few remaining educational events. However, in the case of truly stealing valor, just beat the piss out of him and call it a day. :lol:

Sorry CBI, read that wrong but I would still maintain telling the active duty guy or any vet that it's in honor of the heroes. I did have a vet question me one day for having just a CBI and AAF on a G-1, he had quite the tude, but cooled down once I explained that I'm a guy that keeps the history alive. We went on for an hour while standing in line at an estate sale talking about the generations that couldn't tell you who bombed PH

 

[unclegrumpy]

What about the majority of re-enacting where stripes and Officer insignia are worn in great #'s as opposed to a few flight jackets here and there? As per Air Force regs, you simply cannot wear your name with any the USAF tape on fatigues if a civilian, and nobody wears current issue class A's anyway as a civilian. So any active duty guy getting upset over re-enacting a historic event needs to find a hobby or something, and I would explain to any vet of WW2 etc. it is in his honor and one of the few remaining educational events. However, in the case of truly stealing valor, just beat the piss out of him and call it a day. :lol:

I think this is a topic in and of itself.

I am not a reenactor and never have been, but have participated in a few historical events over the years...most long ago, where some form of period dress was worn. One thing that is different now, is back in the day, most made a conscious effort to wear things that were totally void of any rank insignia. While not as accurate, it did avoid most of the issues you are alluding to. The other thing that was considered out of bounds, was wearing any sort of valor related ribbons, unless you had earned them.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Revised my post, read it wrong

 

[unclegrumpy]

Revised my post, read it wrong

I think the issue gets murky, because it is easy to get lumped in with the dorky looking dudes that need haircuts who where Colonel's eagles and racks of valor ribbons. It is easy to see where some vets have a zero tolerance level to some of this....hard to blame them, especially when I often feel the same way as they do.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

I'll have to agree about the insignia thing anyway, I don't even make them anymore unless asked by a re-enactor or family member building a tribute to Grandpa. It's pretty rare for anyone to ask these days.

 

[Monsoon]

I have no problem with guys wearing rank while reenacting. If you're doing an Army or Marine squad, someone's gotta be in charge.

Guys that do AAF like you see at the Reading Airshow, etc, I have no problem with, either.

Valor awards? Nope. Basic stuff like campaign awards are OK; those are just "I was there" awards and what the normal GI, Marine, Sailor or Airmen would be wearing.

Guys wearing DFCs, Bronze Stars, Air Medals, etc, are a no go for me, unless you're portraying a specific person. I saw a guy that was dressed as General Patton (and sorta looked like him, too), so him wearing Patton's awards makes sense.

 

[dmar836]

I suppose I still don't understand the "issued" status of leather insignia. To whom would it have been issued? Leather insignia had such limited applications. There were "approved" billion insignia as well but I don't think those were "issued" - just approved as a replacement for the standard-issued stuff. I have not seen class A's with leather rank and I don't think that is only because it would look silly.
Then again, much of the metal bars and wings were private purchase.
It gets muddy here as officers were not "issued" class A's but bought their own. What insignia other than initial wings and rank were issued to an officer? Some promotions even appear to have been paperwork promotion.
Interesting discussion,
Dave

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Lt. Foynes told me they were issued to him for his leather flight jacket. I believe it says so in one of the Maguire books as well along with photos. I know the books have flaws but the Lt. telling me so is good enough for me. And seeing countless thin brown leather backing without the foil backs it all up for me. It just failed after a while and fell off. All of those jackets you see with the foil gonzo is leather rank issued for flight jackets.

 

[unclegrumpy]

I suppose I still don't understand the "issued" status of leather insignia. To whom would it have been issued? Leather insignia had such limited applications. There were "approved" billion insignia as well but I don't think those were "issued" - just approved as a replacement for the standard-issued stuff. I have not seen class A's with leather rank and I don't think that is only because it would look silly.
Then again, much of the metal bars and wings were private purchase.
It gets muddy here as officers were not "issued" class A's but bought their own. What insignia other than initial wings and rank were issued to an officer? Some promotions even appear to have been paperwork promotion.
Interesting discussion,
Dave

There are a couple of things going on here.

First, Officers had to buy their uniforms and insignia. However, there are items that are sometimes termed "issued", which were sold in the government owned base clothing sales stores. For insignia, it is generally plain and void of makers marks, and for uniform items, they will generally have the issue style tags in the pockets....but still had to be purchased.

Bullion insignia, makers marked metal insignia & wings, tailor made uniforms and so on, had to be of an "approved" design, and were usually purchased off base, but the Base Exchanges/PXs often had a limited selection as well. Then there are all the unapproved items that were worn, but that is another story.

The leather insignia we have been discussing is in the Class 13 Catalog. The reason being, it was meant to be used on items that were issued...not sold to Officers, the most common being flight jackets and flight suits. The catalog lists the items by stock number. The officer uniform items I mentioned above that were sold in the government stores are also listed, but they again had to be bought.

I am not sure I answered your question, but I hopefully I started to.

 

[dmar836]

Sounds about right to me.
Thanks for the reply.
Dave