Repros vs originals, prices ?

[ADC]

If I were making 500 jackets a week with $50 profit on each I would be very rich. If I were making five a week for a profit of $50 on each I would be better off on the dole or working at McDonalds. Mr Plumbline for all his self professed business acumen does not seem to have clue about economics of scale.

 

[ausreenactor]

If I were making 500 jackets a week with $50 profit on each I would be very rich. If I were making five a week for a profit of $50 on each I would be better off on the dole or working at McDonalds. Mr Plumbline for all his self professed business acumen does not seem to have clue about economics of scale.

How you got that out of the post on page 1 I will never know?

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Hey I think that I'm a pretty good artist as well ................

Van

I'll second that, one of Van's pieces has pride of place in the Aero showroom and receives lots of (deservedly) positive comments

 

[Vcruiser]

If I were making 500 jackets a week with $50 profit on each I would be very rich. If I were making five a week for a profit of $50 on each I would be better off on the dole or working at McDonalds. Mr Plumbline for all his self professed business acumen does not seem to have clue about economics of scale.

How you got that out of the post on page 1 I will never know?

You know I believe that....'you will never know'.
ADC is relating to the part of Plumbline's post that I 'quoted' later in this thread...and how those FL posts were a ridiculous effort by PL of mumbo jumbo attempting to show expertise within the jacket maker field in order to dominate that discussion(until a true expert sarcastically stepped in). Evidently being familiar with that FL thread ADC is responding to the absurdity that PL was hoping to transfer over to this forum and fit into this thread.
Van

 

[Vcruiser]

Hey I think that I'm a pretty good artist as well ................

Van

I'll second that, one of Van's pieces has pride of place in the Aero showroom and receives lots of (deservedly) positive comments

Thank you. You are very kind.
Van

 

[Ian C]

Have you got any examples we could see please Van?

 

[bseal]

Hey I think that I'm a pretty good artist as well ................

Van

I'll second that, one of Van's pieces has pride of place in the Aero showroom and receives lots of (deservedly) positive comments

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Looks like Plumbline changed his tune when coming over here and has said nothing in retaliation for being exposed. So maybe whatever happened at FD needs to stay at FD. Or even PM's sent to Plumbline would be more appropriate as this seems more personal than relevant to this thread. Really not fair to the rest of us having half the story dumped here. On top of it all, JL specifically asked for no bashing, name calling is bashing.

I tried to explain how some may not understand the painstaking efforts that go into a work of art, this may be the case with Plumbline from what I can figure based on such limited one sided info. It certainly is an issue that artists deal with regularly.

500 at 50 bucks? Sounds like mass production. 5 at 50 bucks? I'll take that over flipping burgers any day. Once again, the satisfaction for a true craftsman ain't all money. For me? I'm in my own studio, on my own time, and I'm there because I wanna be. I have zero desire to compete with all those mass produced patches on Ebay. Quoting Dave here -

"There will always be low-end, mass-produced items that a true craftsmen cannot compete with"

So yeah, let's see some of that art Van. I've posted canvas before on Life beyond the internet. And I'll offer this here because it's actually got something to do with leather jackets, art, and two guys that do understand the passion behind the work.

 

[dmar836]

That looks the part! Still don't have a jacket worthy of the stamped pilot wings you sent me about when I got my license. Maybe my next effort?
Keep the good karma flowin' guys.
Dave

 

[Vcruiser]

There are pics of some of my artwork in the Bio section of this forum. Starting in grade school I began drawing eventually doing portraits in Jr High/HS..senior cords..etc. Painting,sketching,etc. Always enjoyed fine detail work. 15 years ago after retirement I got back into artwork and became interested in wood engraving. Mainly since it was a fairly unusual medium and I enjoyed doing it (although time consuming). However..I'm not here to promote my artwork. There are many fine artist out there. I'm old school. just draw it by hand..engrave it by Dremel to give it depth,detail and then stain.
Van

 

[a2jacketpatches]

This thread really has nothing to do with our individual artistic abilities. But understanding what's really behind all of this does. I just thought the approach of explaining / showing / promoting my artwork might go a long way in helping others understand the difference between -

High end repro of anything (ART)
Inexpensive repro (Product)
Mass produced (Cheap Crap)
Original (Antique)

Before finally settling on my love of making high end repro patches, I made master models to be cheaply cast in quantity and got a percentage of every one sold. Then I was one of those airbrush t-shirt guys in the early 90's jamming out Susie loves Jimmy t-shirts on Cape Cod all day for 20- a pop. That led to photo-realistic portraiture that everyone wanted for the same 20 bucks. From there, I found my first original A2 hanging on a chair at the dump free shed ( a place where you could leave and take decent stuff too good to throw away) Been doing antiques and all forms of art since. So I've touched on just about everything and felt the pain. The only reason I have so much to say here.

 

[FlyingYankee]

I like the original concept of John Chapman. You can get a brand new A-2 just like they were made in the 1940s. Unless you are a size 36 to 40 it is impossible to find a larger size in wearable condition with sleeves long enough. Happy to have the opportunity to experience a real A-2. Not easy to get for everyone but certainly an attainable goal if you really want one and are willing to work for it.

 

[ADC]

If I were making 500 jackets a week with $50 profit on each I would be very rich. If I were making five a week for a profit of $50 on each I would be better off on the dole or working at McDonalds. Mr Plumbline for all his self professed business acumen does not seem to have clue about economics of scale.

How you got that out of the post on page 1 I will never know?

You know I believe that....'you will never know'.
ADC is relating to the part of Plumbline's post that I 'quoted' later in this thread...and how those FL posts were a ridiculous effort by PL of mumbo jumbo attempting to show expertise within the jacket maker field in order to dominate that discussion(until a true expert sarcastically stepped in). Evidently being familiar with that FL thread ADC is responding to the absurdity that PL was hoping to transfer over to this forum and fit into this thread.
Van

I started that thread on FL Outerwear sub forum about the price rises. I thought it was relavent since just about every third thread is about Aero dis and dat. As the price rises were already active with no mention for about a week I thought it would be in the public interest to mention. It was sad the way the thread turned out. There seems to be some ugly long standing grudges which I was not aware of on FL and glad the thread was deleted. My only minor gripe was that since companies like Aero foster identity and relationship building with their customers who reciprocate they should not be shy about communicating price rises. I note that GW justified recent price rises on its Website. BTW I own two expensive Aero jackets bought new directly from the company. I am a big fan of their products.

 

[unclegrumpy]

I will not be 'investing' in the high end repros again.

Famous last words! :lol:

I think once you empty your cookie jar again, liberating the last of those tasty little rascals for possibly the last time, you should start tossing your spare change in the jar. That way, when the day comes, after you are long retired, and all of your favorite jackets have "shrunk" in your closet, you will have set aside enough to purchase something expensive to cover your new found girth.

 

[Vcruiser]

Yep..there are those that are on the ever ready attack any time that Aero is mentioned (no matter the specific relevant subject). Doesn't matter if the discussion is about their civvy jackets or A2s. Both are thrown into the mix as the same horrid Aero-ness that should be tamped down or exposed as a cult of Aero favorable-ness Zombies who for no good reason stumble around chanting Aero..Aero.... :? :shock:
Van

 

[Bombing IP]

Most people thought a Bomber jacket was just a generic leather jacket with a zip front .I remember kids wearing bomber jackets in my school it was the fashion .The jackets were black and had noting in common with the A-2 but it was called a bomber jacket by mom and dads an the kids . Today so few people could tell you which is the better repro if shown a Cooper or a Good Wear and would probably ask why are there are no side pockets . I remember a comment by a forum member many years ago who had a good collection of jackets , I quote "most people think I have two jackets a brown one and a green one ".

Most VLJ members who have a real interest in the A-2 notice every thing ,they have a very critical eye and are caught in the vicious cycle of finding the perfect jacket (holy grail syndrome ) .Things like ,drape ,fit ,color,thickness of leather,sleeve length ,authentic hardware ,lining & labels ,how it looks next to an original , long term progression patina and wear , wool knits , shoulder fit ,sleeve length ,measurement of the back length ,pocket height and of course the correct zip .

Now that is out of the way and we introduce the variable of every man is shaped different and want to look like a WW@ 2 pilot ,who in there right mind would want to start a company making jackets for the most critical end users in the world . I can not think of another product that gets so dissected and analyzed like we do to the A-2 .So I say the price is fair for the research, investment in equipment needed,the cost of import hides and the time making of the jacket and dealing with the endless calls and emails .To be fair the the makers of all the jackets , they have raised our game and knowledge also ,we even have competitions on guessing the maker .

Me I have had 2 originals and have had about 10 repros ,my feeling on the originals is they are for collections and museums .Most people are not the size of people in WW2 so I feel the price is dropping because to tie up so much money in something you look at is not easy sell to your wife ( in this era of 1% or 0% pay raises ) .Buying a jacket to wear is easier the hard part is explaining why you have to have six the same .Incidentally if anyone has a size 42 A-2 with a name tag E.H.KAEPPEL with a bullion 8th Airforce roundel on the sleeve and major rank on the epaulettes it used to belong to me .I can tell you where I bought and when .

Bombing IP
New York City

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Yes, I remember back in the mid 80's looking through the Cockpit catalog, tiny little thing. And realizing that I loved flight jackets and wanted to learn as much as possible about them. Around the same time my Dad bought a Protech while we were at a Manchester NH War Birds Show from James Goodson Jr, son of Colonel Jim Goodson. He said it was spot on copy of the original his Dad wore during WW2. I soon had my girlfriend at the time buying me one for my birthday. So proud of that thing walking around telling anyone who cared even a little how authentic it was. Not much detailed info back then and I just went by what everyone told me. Also remember the custom painted patch section in that catalog, little did I know that it would itch me for years until I actually made a hobby out of it. Slowly but surely and a book here and there, met a collector who was wearing an original, the internet opened up, and look at us now. After a few more years of being obsessed about it to the point of a 1000Sq Ft basement dedicated to my hobby, I bought JC first CD and realized Hey! This guy is as crazy as I am. :lol:

So welcome to VLJ and thanks for not transferring the bad vibes over from FD, most of us here don't give a rats ass.

 

[Bombing IP]

Yes its funny how much good money was spent on bad copies of jackets ,jackets we were told that they are authentic 100% . In my opinion JC was the man that held every one's feet over the fire ,and forced others to get it right if they want to sell or lose the business (there's a new sheriff in town ) .The forums like this were giving power to the people in the form of knowledge. We now at least know as much as the makers and will accept nothing less than correct ,and we back it up with our FRN's (Federal reserve notes) .

Thanks for the welcome ,have been a fan of your work with the patches for a long time especially the 48 star flag you used to make .I made a few patches in the past and agree its very therapeutic and you sort of go into a zone like the world has left you behind . You talk about the FD bad vibes what is that ?

Bombing IP
NYC

 

[unclegrumpy]

Yes its funny how much good money was spent on bad copies of jackets ,jackets we were told that they are authentic 100% . In my opinion JC was the man that held every one's feet over the fire ,and forced others to get it right if they want to sell or lose the business (there's a new sheriff in town ) .The forums like this were giving power to the people in the form of knowledge. We now at least know as much as the makers and will accept nothing less than correct ,and we back it up with our FRN's (Federal reserve notes) .

I think both Ken at Aero and Gary Eastman deserve a lot of credit for blazing the trail.

Sometimes it is easier to improve on something, than be the first guys to jump in the water.

I take my hat off to all the top tier guys...JC, Ken, Gary, fishmeok, Diamond Dave, and yes Platon too, all are working hard small businessmen. Each brings something a little different to the table...price, historical accuracy, fit, finish, selection, and so on.

We need them all, and each excels at something.

 

[ausreenactor]

I will not be 'investing' in the high end repros again.

Famous last words! :lol:

I think once you empty your cookie jar again, liberating the last of those tasty little rascals for possibly the last time, you should start tossing your spare change in the jar. That way, when the day comes, after you are long retired, and all of your favorite jackets have "shrunk" in your closet, you will have set aside enough to purchase something expensive to cover your new found girth.

At the moment it would take around 100 Good Wears to empty the cookie jar. With pending DVA compensation payouts I am in a pretty fortunate position. I am semi-retired now at 44. Tianna has finished her Degree and I do a few days a month to maintain Defence home loan benefits and flex the rank in a small way. My accumulated funds have been based on sound decisions and protecting the investments I have made. Just like last years decision to divest myself of as much horsehide as possible. A softening economy has killed the second hand market in my opinion. Good items will always fetch a premium. At the moment we are spoilt for choice in the $500 - $1500 price range for new flight jackets. There will always be someone happy to purchase a high end repro.. My only bespoke A-2 cost me well over the cost of a GW with any NOS zipper. As it was built to spec, to replicate a specific WWII jacket, it is my one and only keeper. If my father did not have the Murder Inc A-2 it could have gone as well. I would be confident that a good original A-2 would hold it's value over time even in a low market. This was surely the topic to ponder in the original post.

To deride a new member for his first posts and use the language applied here is somewhat inappropriate. I have re-read all the posts again for content, as I did before I posted my initial post in the thread. The only example of 'hate spillage' between FL and VLJ is our beloved Van. I can understand how Van may have been riled up over there. To not have the story (which was so insane it got deleted over there) and to just the language and tone here on VLJ was an eye opener. And in some must have created an alignment to a train of thought. The post here, in my opinion, was rather innocuous and I did mention that when referring back to John's topic. My attempts to align the focus back to the original topic failed.

I get the economies of scale. I understand the requirements for high prices on bespoke items. My father made gun leather. His raw leather cost more than some catalogue items. The reason I buy so many Buzz Rickson and Real McCoy items? Everyone in the world knows the quality and consistency. The same jacket can be had from Rakuten, Eastman or HPA in the USA. Never seen one made on a Monday morning or a Friday afternoon with an error. No need to be concerned with weight, lengths, grain, stiffness on a catalogue cloth or nylon. And if I need to show off I just put on the BR B-2 to warm me. That's a jacket and worthy of a high price 'irregardless' of who puts it together or where.

Reminds me of the Big Lebowski... 'calmer than you are'....