Repros vs originals, prices ?

[John Lever]

What many here had long predicted, the price of repro jackets has now exceeded that of originals in many cases. It started in Japan with the very high end Toys McCoy's and RMJ McQueen jackets, but now spiralling production costs mean that in many cases a new original Irvin is cheaper than one from Eastman.
So the question is 'Is the tail wagging the dog ?'
This is not a thread to have a pop at reproduction companies but rather how we see ourselves. So no bashing please.

 

[Roughwear]

Really rare or pristine original jackets still fetch more than repros, but they are now the exception. Collectors will pay large sums for a "must have" jacket to add to their collection. Painted A2s still command high prices as do pristine Irvins. A near mint Irvin recently sold for £2k.

Of course repro jackets have gone up in price recently as the cost of raw materials has spiralled, which has affected the price of second hand jackets too.

These days repros are a much better bet as a daily wearer and the demand for high end ones remains strong.

 

[Silver Surfer]

john is kinda right, in that originals in average condition are less then new high end repros. yes, it is true that the prices for materials to make accurate top of the line repro jacs has gone up, up, and up. ever more so with the demands from repro makers to their hide suppliers to tan, dye and finish their hides as was done 70 years ago. grant, robert and i were yakking away at my local, one night about 9-10 years ago , when the conversation turned to the then increased price of repros.. i opened my trap to state that the way things were going, it just a matter of time before a repo a-2 would be $1000, and from there......no friggn way, no one would pay a grand for a repro, was the response at the time. if im not mistaken, the price for a gw a-2 is now $1600, and i reckon about the same or more for a repro from japan. the next stop on the price express?

 

[ADC]

I imagine these high end repro's would barely register in numbers of total A2 style jackets made around the world. The vast majority are quite cheap. High end repro's are a niche market that is now comparable to haute couture. Using only the best exotic skins, laborious finishes, dedicated hardware, exacting craftsmanship and specifications, obsession with minutiae and low volume artisan production was always a recipe for ever increasing prices. The malaise is usually customer driven because the next jacket always has to be better or more exclusive than the last and makers have to oblige. Still this has not reached the ridiculous pricing of establishment haute couture where a prestigious name is akin to a blank cheque on pricing.

 

[John Lever]

Good post.

 

[plumbline]

I posted a note of similar sentiment ( a particular repro manufacturers price increases) on TFL ... that was fun (not) .... which ended up in a quite witty reply from JC (justifiying the price of a Goodwear A-2) and then totally incorrect accusations of anti-Aero bias. This also gave light to the detail that the BL Heracles is £1200 in the UK which makes even the highest priced repro A-2 look a little conservative !

IMHO there are some repro jackets which due to their complexity, the cost of materials and the nature of NOS original components which can justify moderately high prices. The rest is just the market in action .... that's why I'm a second hand and sale page repro buyer ( where price reallity has once again been achieved .. a decent 2nd hand repro - Eastman / Aero A-2 can be had for £250 or less, often £4-500 for a Goodwear).

I have concluded that people will pay what they will pay ... it's their money ... and woe betide anyone who suggests that this should be baulked at ! The market for originals is much more limited. Few people in a large marketplace (present company exepted ) want a 2nd hand 70/80 year old jacket they'd much rather have a new one which has their perfect fit and has that new jacket smell ... and are clearly prepared to pay for it.

It should be noted that this price reversal is also being felt in the M/C jacket arena with original jackets ( with the exception of rare exceptional condition originals) going for significantly less than repro versions ( great condition original Buco PJ-27's ebay £170 and £274 ... LW repro $1500 )

Thankfuly the same hasn't happened with guitars

 

[dmar836]

Perhaps building a guitar or jacket and living off the profit would shed light on the subject for you. There will always be low-end, mass-produced items that a true craftsmen cannot compete with(the lowest common denominator). That might be more your price point.
Dave

 

[plumbline]

great point Dave ... I think the 2nd hand market is my marker .... but it is a little surprising that a 2nd hand original is cheaper than a repro ( sort of like a '59 les Paul being cheaper than a '59 reissue !!!!!!! )

 

[Vcruiser]

I posted a note of similar sentiment ( a particular repro manufacturers price increases) on TFL ... that was fun (not) .... which ended up in a quite witty reply from JC (justifiying the price of a Goodwear A-2) and then totally incorrect accusations of anti-Aero bias.

Trying to find another home,heh..??
Don't know why when you're becoming quite the celebrity over on the FL. :?
Somehow..I don't think misrepresenting one of our own here will find you much favor..but since that FL thread was finally deleted due to your ongoing antics and JC most likely may not come to his own defense here concerning more of your BS..I will.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

RUT-RO!!!!!!

 

[ButteMT61]

Touché, Van!

As for the prices, well, JC's two-year wait is still better than 70+ years for an original to get that just-right patina! :lol:

Addressing the topic, I almost never see an original in my size, and when there have been, either they were way too much, or I just didn't have the money. Bigger = more $, so it's more timing for me than anything. I'd love to have an original in great shape in my size that I could wear. But the cost has always kept me away.

I've moved on to the 2nd-hand (or more hands) market when I can find nice, barely-used examples. There's plenty of guys with two-years and two grand to spend, but my life has changed and I don't see myself buying new for a while.

 

[dmar836]

I guess I'm glad I missed all that drama.
I, personally, have never purchased a new repro.... or a new car for that matter. I also don't wear my originals. I'm a tough niche, no?
I may not be able to let go of the money but I certainly understand the prices. It isn't easy money at all. There will always be complainers who can't see why they can't have the best for the price of the least. For your delight, it would now appear that the market is starting to see a lot more of the second hand repros.
Just remember, in life, this is the toy department. When it is no longer fun people leave.
We don't need that.
JMO,
Dave

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Just bought a 32000.00 vehicle for 16000.00 because it had 42K miles on it. Most of the lambskin I use to make my creations is re-purposed from the back of some bar hag in the 80's in the form of a Michael Jackson style jacket. The tools and equipment in my studio came from swap meets, yard sales, and even the road side. I've always been and probably always will be in the market for second hand whatever it is.

I don't bother much with Fedora Lounge much since they tried to tap me for hundreds of dollars as if I need their exposure, so I have no idea what's going on there and could care less. What I do know as a fellow craftsman, is that JC's passion for what he does results in the best jackets known to man. He doesn't need to justify anything, defend himself, or be defended. I know he's not getting rich doing them and his prices reflect the high demand, costs of materials and labor. He loves what he's doing as most artists do and that's where the satisfaction comes from. People who love art understand this, can afford it, and don't paying the high price. As artists, providing a product at an affordable price to everyone is the last friggin thing on our minds, the best of quality is the first. An affordable product is done by a machine or assembly line.

A Goodwear jacket is wearable art by an artist, not just a jacket maker dammit

 

[Vcruiser]

I'll put it this way...JC may not need to defend himself or even have friends like me stick up for him when some jerk thinks he can misstate a post in a now deleted thread (and get away with it to the unknowing)..and as John certainly doesn't display the arrogance of some craftsman but does appreciate those who would be bold enough to actually take a stand...I'd do it again in a heartbeat. I don't really care who likes or doesn't like the FL. That's not the point. Carrying unfair remarks over to this forum for some kind of personal satisfaction should be exposed for just what it is. BS
Van

 

[a2jacketpatches]

You're right Van. Maybe I should have generalized my post and said "a true artist" instead of "JC"

Everyone else...... I'm just trying to convey the views of an artist to someone who may not understand. It's a thing I've had to explain a thousand times, and a thousand ways over the years. Here, the general public, potential customers, family, and I'm sure I'll do it a thousand more.

 

[Vcruiser]

Hey I think that I'm a pretty good artist as well and agree with most of what you are saying perfectly.

Van

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Then you'll also agree that we are a rare breed that most people don't understand. Viewing art as a product for instance. Ignorant as opposed to malicious.

 

[Vcruiser]

Probably so. I do know this..I usually get so involved in detailing my artwork step by step that I easily lose track of time..often even lunch...until it is finished. Then I sit back and look at it with a sense of gratification for awhile..maybe a bit of amazement at times...but go on to the next one still feeling unfulfilled. I could have done better. Yet there are those who will pay me well for it and seem somewhat astonished that ole Van could accomplish such a thing. Yet I would love doing it if absolutely no one ever gave me a dollar. I would probably have them hung and stacked all over the place. Years ago I did portraits and gave them away. Just enjoyed the pleasure of someone saying..Hey..that's damn good. Then a lady saw my work and offered me $$ to do one of her GrandDaughter. A buddy offered me twice as much as that to paint a pic of his wife...and so it began. Then after the word got out there were also the unreasonable who seemed to want to hire my soul with expectations that it should be easy,quick,cheap and that they must add their creativeness to my work. An artist can't be thin skinned. Finally I decided to work by my own time table. If it got to be WORK to the point that I was rushing or pressured then they could just go find someone else. Now I do it at my leisure. My only advertising is by word of mouth..and I like it that way.
Van

 

[ausreenactor]

I'll put it this way...JC may not need to defend himself or even have friends like me stick up for him when some jerk thinks he can misstate a post in a now deleted thread (and get away with it to the unknowing)..and as John certainly doesn't display the arrogance of some craftsman but does appreciate those who would be bold enough to actually take a stand...I'd do it again in a heartbeat. I don't really care who likes or doesn't like the FL. That's not the point. Carrying unfair remarks over to this forum for some kind of personal satisfaction should be exposed for just what it is. BS
Van

Never saw the post on FL. I think the controversial post here in response to John's question is pretty much spot on, and does not accuse anyone of anything. I will take it on it's merits. In the past I have elected to buy cheap Buzz Rickson A-2s and expensive second hand GWs. Both fetch me around the same price when moving them on to the second hand (third hand/fourth hand in the case of the GWs). The second hand market is very soft at the moment. There was a great 42 SAT that went for under $600 a matter of a few weeks ago. I will not be 'investing' in the high end repros again, yet there was a 46 SAT that allegedly fetched over $1200. I still have my bespoke Werber A-2 and my Murder Inc ELC. I have an original Bronco 44 in super shape from Aero's reference museum collection. The rest are BR Cloth/Nylons. Any new A-2s will be limited to any future BK sales at US$750, if ever they take place. I can do WWII B-10s and Tankers much cheaper and don't have to panic about any minor wear. I am about to move the Bronco if the price is right on the Facebook pages before an eBay listing. Will see if it fetches the cost of a high end repro and this can answer the question posed here.

Couchy

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Probably so. I do know this..I usually get so involved in detailing my artwork step by step that I easily lose track of time..often even lunch...until it is finished. Then I sit back and look at it with a sense of gratification for awhile..maybe a bit of amazement at times...but go on to the next one still feeling unfulfilled. I could have done better. Yet there are those who will pay me well for it and seem somewhat astonished that ole Van could accomplish such a thing. Yet I would love doing it if absolutely no one ever gave me a dollar. I would probably have them hung and stacked all over the place. Years ago I did portraits and gave them away. Just enjoyed the pleasure of someone saying..Hey..that's damn good. Then a lady saw my work and offered me $$ to do one of her GrandDaughter. A buddy offered me twice as much as that to paint a pic of his wife...and so it began. Then after the word got out there were also the unreasonable who seemed to want to hire my soul with expectations that it should be easy,quick,cheap and that they must add their creativeness to my work. An artist can't be thin skinned. Finally I decided to work by my own time table. If it got to be WORK to the point that I was rushing or pressured then they could just go find someone else. Now I do it at my leisure. My only advertising is by word of mouth..and I like it that way.
Van

Yes, probably so.