G&B A-2 - Silk Lining is Tearing/Deteriorating

[Captain_Krunch]

In May 2006, I purchased a Gibson & Barnes goat A-2, the Mark 31 with silk lining (Thanks to Bill French's review of his from ~ 2005). In that time, the goatskin has held up very well, and looks almost brand new. The silk lining, on the other hand, has been very unsatisfactory. As you can see in the pictures below, the silk lining has developed a number of tears throughout: at both hip locations, at both armpits, and around the neck. When the first tear at the left hip occurred, I just assumed my Blackberry had ripped it - but with the tears also eventually occurring around the armpit area, I knew that this might not be my fault.

I'm finally getting around to contacting G&B to see what they might be willing to do about it (These rips have been around for at least a couple of years - and yes, I've been negligent in not contacting them sooner ). I'll send them these photos tonight, and we'll see what they say, but my fear is that they won't take any responsibility for this, although I think it's clear this is a major defect that they should fix.

Anyway, I just wanted to see if anyone else has ever had a problem like this with their jackets. I also wanted to know if anyone has had problems with G&B that they've been able to resolve satisfactorily. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Krunch

Lining Overview:

Right Hip:

Left Hip:

Left Armpit:

Right Armpit:

Right Collar:

Collar Overview:

 

[atkins]

Man, i hope they will replace it soon. My now gone MK41's cotton lining also showing a blackened at the point of collar stand too back then but not yet deteriorate. Good luck Capt'n

 

[Roughwear]

Oh dear. The lining definitely needs some TLC.It is possible to patch repair the lining. Although silk feels comfortable a lining material it is less durable than cotton. No wonder so few original A2s were silk lined.

 

[Anonymous]

I though silk lining was supposed to be red.
Am I wrong?

 

[Roughwear]

It has been asserted that some aces had their A2s relined in red silk. I'm still hoping to see photos of of one such jacket.

 

[MikeyB-17]

The silk lining in an Aero A-2 I had started to wear through pretty quickly at the collar. I wouldn't have it in another jacket, the cotton is much more durable.

 

[kojax]

they will take care of it for free. they did my a-2 jacket linnng for free i just paid for the shipping

 

[atkins]

they will take care of it for free. they did my a-2 jacket linnng for free i just paid for the shipping

Great service.

 

[RCSignals]

I thought Silk was supposed to be tough. Real Silk anyway.
Was the lining supposed to be genuine Silk?

 

[Roughwear]

I thought Silk was supposed to be tough. Real Silk anyway.
Was the lining supposed to be genuine Silk?

There are different grades of silk, with some more durable than others and from my experience it is prone to tearing, especially along seams. Cotton lining on the other is more hard-wearing as lining material and does not suffer so easily from the issues outlined below.

Silk is one of the strongest natural fibres but loses up to 20% of its strength when wet. It has a good moisture regain of 11%. Its elasticity is moderate to poor: if elongated even a small amount, it remains stretched. It can be weakened if exposed to too much sunlight. It may also be attacked by insects, especially if left dirty.

 

[zoomer]

AIUI, the original spec was for spun silk, which is a fabric woven of silk yarns, in the way cotton or wool fabric is made. More comfortable for the wearer, but less durable even than conventional silk. No idea which contractors used it for linings, but there were some, as the AAC was still sourcing it until 1939.

 

[RCSignals]

Interesting about the Silk. I was always under the impression it was strong, (at least pure silk) but not easily sourced.

There is no doubt the cotton used was durable tough stuff in a tight weave, almost water resistant.

 

[Captain_Krunch]

I appreciate everyone's comments, but I guess in the end, it really doesn't matter what type of silk is used - it's a jacket that was produced barely 5 years ago, and I had an expectation of durability that this particular jacket has not demonstrated. I mean, heck, for all intents and purposes, it's a dress jacket - I'm not getting in and out of a P-51 every day; I just sit in front of a computer - so why I should have this level of tearing at this point in time is beyond me.

So that being said, I got a response today. "I spoke with my boss & he looked at your pictures too. Say’s it looks like normal wear & tear for that silk lining. Please send it in so we can take a closer look & figure out the cost of having it replaced."

Not really the answer I was expecting. I'm sorry, but I can't believe anyone would say this is "normal wear & tear" - at least not with a straight face. If this jacket was 20 years old, maybe; but it's less than 5. If this is the wear and tear they expect for a silk lining, perhaps they shouldn't be offering this material?

Well, I guess I don't have many options, and will have to send it back. When I spoke to them on the phone, it sounded like I could replace it with cotton, which I'll probably do. My 22-year old Cockpit A-2's cotton lining has held up very well, so would imagine a G&B cotton lining would do the same.

Krunch

 

[HackerF15E]

I guess I don't understand why anyone would expect the manufacturer to replace that.

There's no time guarantee on how long the liner will last, is there?

I sympathize that it is a bummer that it's happening, but to expect a free replacement because of that wear is IMHO ridiculous.

 

[Roughwear]

I guess I don't understand why anyone would expect the manufacturer to replace that.

There's no time guarantee on how long the liner will last, is there?

I sympathize that it is a bummer that it's happening, but to expect a free replacement because of that wear is IMHO ridiculous.

I agree. Had the jacket been under a year old and lightly worn and the lining ripped, then a manufacturer might replace it for free, but after 6 years no way.

 

[Hamsterbear]

I currently have about a dozen G&B/Flightsuits jackets, and probably have had a half dozen others at various times (bought/sold) and I have never had a lining wear like that. My favorite jacket from them is a goatskin A-2 with the silk lining, and I've had it now for about 10 years and it is just starting to wear around the back of the neck, very similar to what you see in photos of the lining of some WWII originals .
This is my G&B A-2:

This is a very well preserved original with similar wear:

 

[Captain_Krunch]

Hamsterbear, thanks for the feedback. That observation is more of what I would expect. Additionally, in another thread, people praised silk as a lining. I would think that if there was a problem with its durability, folks would have commented on it there.

And no, I don't necessarily have an expectation of a free repair - although that would be nice - but I do have an expectation of being dealt with fairly, and I don't think being told that damage to my jacket lining is "normal wear & tear" falls into this category. Look, this is not a cheap costume jacket; this is a $550 jacket, and I had an expectation that the materials would hold up for an extended period of time, and not deteriorate within three years (Which is when the damage first appeared). I believe this was a reasonable expectation - don't others think so?

K

 

[siddhartha]

I was under the impression that "spun silk" was actually MORE durable than cotton. I only owned one A-2 with the silk lining from Aero, and didn't wear it much at all, so I don't have first hand experience...

 

[HackerF15E]

I believe this was a reasonable expectation - don't others think so?

I think that's a fine expectation...the problem is, does Gibson and Barnes have any kind of legal or financial responsibility to live up to your expectation?

They sold a product that wasn't advertised or sold fraudulently, and a money-back guarantee that you agreed to when you made the purchase. Why would there be an expectation for there to be any legal (or ethical) responsibility beyond that?

Again, I agree that it sucks that the liner started coming apart so quickly..but you pay your money and you take your chances. I've been let down by many products I've purchased over the years that I'd wished cost less for what I received or lasted longer than they did.

Certainly it would be nice if the company wanted to go well above and beyond what's required or expected and cut some deal to replace the liner -- that would certainly do well for the company's customer satisfaction and overall perception...but IMHO they're under no obligation to do so whatsoever.

Not sure where in the course of growing up in a capitalist free-market economy, we as consumers developed such an entitlement about the products we purchase.

 

[Vcruiser]

I was under the impression that "spun silk" was actually MORE durable than cotton. I only owned one A-2 with the silk lining from Aero, and didn't wear it much at all, so I don't have first hand experience...

Chris
Me too..! I have a Aero seal Buffalo A2 with the red spun silk lining that is probably 6-7 yrs old..and I can't find any wear at all on the lining. Granted..I haven't worn it near as much as the others with cotton lining...but I haven't found it fragile at all compared to the cotton.
Van