WW2 A-2 tanning

[Juanito]

There are two US tanneries still producing predominately veg tanned leather exclusively.
Wickett and Craig in Pennsylvania. (I actually visited the tannery)
The other is Herman Oak.

My opinion on why repro makes use veg tanned a lot is because it patina’s and wears a lot differently. Depending on who does it, chrome tanning remains the same. I read over on the FDL about a pilot who was issued a us wings A2 and he did everything to it to make it look worn and it still looked the same. They just make that stuff to last a lot better than they used to.

This does beg the question then; if original A-2s were chrome tanned (and in the war years, pigment finished) why would would someone "replicate" them with veg tanned, aniline dyed finishes if they are trying to be 100% accurate? Wouldn't you want the leather tanned and finished in the same manner unless you are going for some fashionista direction that is time worn in an accelerated manner?

 

[Technonut2112]

Thus does beg the question then; if original A-2s were chrome tanned (and in the war years, pigment finished) why would would someone "replicate" them with veg tanned, aniline dyed finishes if they are trying to be 100% accurate? Wouldn't you want the leather tanned and finished in the same manner unless you are going for some fashionista direction that is time worn in an accelerated manner?

Kind of why I prefer my Japanese chrome-tanned HH 'Morgan Memphis Belle' A-2 over my GW 27752 at times.... it just looks (and is wearing) more like an original to me.

 

[Juanito]

The A2 leather specifications and test documents were published in the Eastman A2 manual in 2012.
The leather was chrome tanned.

...and the crazy thing is that ELC says in their advertising material that they are veg tanned just like 1942 or the war years, or something to that effect. Which one is it? I find it hard to believe that a tannery would choose to take a process that takes a month over one the takes a day or two, but what do I know about leather production during war time? I am no expert.

As Charles who I have known and conversed about USAAF jackets since 1989 and when History Preservation Associates was Nose Art Unlimited has said, "...the use of aniline dyes is due to the fact that pigment dying today is unlike that done in the good old days due to environmental laws now in place; aniline yields a more authentic look than what can be generated from pigment dyes today (in the mind of those who employ it, in my mind, and in the minds of many, many others). I own an Eastman Rough Wear 1401-P A-2 with the pigment dyes you reference from 1994, and while it looks quite good, it took many, many years to get that way, and when it was new, the pigment dye looked very plastic like, unlike aniline now used, which looks good immediately and wears in nicely in weeks."

Further Charles stated, "I make no bones about it that vintage jackets were never aniline dyed. Vintage A-2s may appear to be aniline dyed to some but appearances are not just deceiving, they defy logic and close scrutiny. Aniline is a process that would never have been used because of the expense involved, plus it offers none of properties that the dyes were specified to provide - protection from moisture, grease, oil, etc. Aniline is used today both because some makers think it was and, the main reason it's used is because it does offer a product that when worn will yield a look closer than the pigment dyes will provide vis-à-vis the appearance of vintage jackets, so the primary reason it's used today is because it looks the most authentic, and because it looks more correct, some also think it was used in original production

Please don't get me wrong about Charles, ELC or any other reproduction maker; my 2nd hand veg tanned, semi-aniline finished ELC .50 cal is my favorite jacket to wear, but it seems or appears that the whole veg tanned, aniline finished jacket concept presented as an exact copy of an original is not, at best, the norm of war time A-2s or, at worst, is simply incorrect or misleading.

I don't really care, but I would like the accurate truth.

 

[jeremiah]

I often wonder why too.

 

[D97x7]

Thus does beg the question then; if original A-2s were chrome tanned (and in the war years, pigment finished) why would would someone "replicate" them with veg tanned, aniline dyed finishes if they are trying to be 100% accurate? Wouldn't you want the leather tanned and finished in the same manner unless you are going for some fashionista direction that is time worn in an accelerated manner?

Ah, the elephant in the room

 

[Smithy]

If we're talking A-2s, I think that they (the high end makers) most likely use the leathers they do because they want the jacket to very quickly look like a 75 year old original leather jacket not exactly like a jacket would've looked upon issue 75 years ago.

Whilst the leather often looks great on these the biggest visual difference for me and a lot of the high end A-2s is the drape of the leather. They are and look much stiffer and drape differently.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

I wonder if the reason repro makers use veg tanning more is because this method more quickly develops that "50 mission look" that we all seek...?

Ken

Few leathers develops patina and grain quicker than our Jerky Horse, certainly ages quicker than the Vicenza

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

For quicker ageing the most essential "ingredient" is a dark top finish on a paler base, the Horween heavy Chrome Tanned Horse we've been using since 1986 has always come like that................ is now known in "modernspeak" as "tea core".....I think that term was invented in Japan.....a top finish on a paler base as opposed to dyed throught.
Think about it.............if the top finish wears off to show a slightly (or drastically) different colour underneath, you've got "patina"
In the 1990s there was a fashion for distressed furniture, paint the base, lets say cream, top coat of blue, sand the high spots, wax and polish up the worn edges, etc etc
I've notice recently one or two makers who use Shinki Horse are stripping some of the maker's finish off and adding their own top coat, waashing, drying etc.....all seems a very conflated considering the cost and (precieved) quality of the original product when it could all be done at the tannery by experts

When we first had jerky made all we did was give the tannery my old A-2 (amazingly I've still got a pic of the actual jacket, attached) asked the tannery to replicate the leather with a very unmatched grain, pale base and a thinner than usual sprayed topcoat in a (darker) contrast to match the original jacket

We originally started using Italian Veg tanned horsehide mainly as we wanted an upgrade from the Horween we'd always used and because there wasn't quite the demand for real heavy leather that there had been for the previous 30 years. It was never originally intended (by us) for Type A-2s but for our civvy range

 

[zoomer]

"...I own an Eastman Rough Wear 1401-P A-2 with the pigment dyes you reference from 1994, and while it looks quite good, it took many, many years to get that way, and when it was new, the pigment dye looked very plastic like, unlike aniline now used, which looks good immediately and wears in nicely in weeks."

I've got one of those RWs myself. It's a great wet-weather jacket but it's never going to grain or look used because the finish is so impervious. It's also pliable - I don't think it ever needed much break-in.

 

[Silver Surfer]

thus the reason lost worlds a-2s and their other hh jacket never break in well, and never show wear even when worn a lot, and for a long time. way over chrome dyed, tanned, unreasonably thick hides, et al.

 

[zoomer]

thus the reason lost worlds a-2s and their other hh jacket never break in well, and never show wear even when worn a lot, and for a long time. way over chrome dyed, tanned, unreasonably thick hides, et al.

LW puts the hallmark on toughness at the cost of pliability and wear-in...and stealth. Their jackets SQUEAK too much for any professional assassin, second-story man, or patron of finer music. The few times I wore my Dubow to a concert I felt like a human cough drop, rattling my wrapper every time I shifted in my seat.

I'm sure the cyclist and fetish clientele appreciate the "attitudinal" hides, but Stu does promote them as the real old thing across-the-board. Which they patently are not. I couldn't have worn my LW B-2 in a bomber, unless I was to be dropped out of the bomb bay.

 

[2BM2K]

I've got one of those RWs myself. It's a great wet-weather jacket but it's never going to grain or look used because the finish is so impervious. It's also pliable - I don't think it ever needed much break-in.

I think that this describes perfectly what an original A2 was designed to be like.

 

[33-1729]

I have to give Mr. Eastman the benefit of the doubt. His book shows they used 'full grain, chrome tanned, dyed leather", but all of the chrome tanning related documents in his book are dated 1941 or later. It is possible that other tanning methods were used earlier, especially during the low demand pre-war period. Unfortunately, neither a horsehide specification or tanning requirement is provided in the A-2 spec 94-3040 and multiple leather tanning methods were available at that time. I would suspect the faster-cheaper chrome tanning method to be preferred, but then the A-2 used time-consuming buttoned hole pocket flaps before switching to snaps.

Also in Mr Eastman's book on page 46 is a letter dated Sept 14 ,1931 from the Chicago Tanning Company promoting the use of less expensive cowhide stating "We are convinced that coats made out of Genuine Cowhide Leather--if the leather is properly tanned--are far superior to those made out of Horsehide." This implies a change in tanning methods may be required than what was used on the early horsehide A-2's.

I do know the original 44" sized Werber 33-1729 in his book is a dead ringer for the 44" repo he made for me. Wish I could see it in person to compare.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Also in Mr Eastman's book on page 46 is a letter dated Sept 14 ,1931 from the Chicago Tanning Company promoting the use of less expensive cowhide stating "We are convinced that coats made out of Genuine Cowhide Leather--if the leather is properly tanned--are far superior to those made out of Horsehide." This implies a change in tanning methods may be required than what was used on the early horsehide A-2's.

.

As Chicago Tanning were huge rivals of local Horsehide producers Horween who were already supplying horse, my mind goes back to Mandy Rice Davis's famous phrase, "They would say that, wouldn't they"

 

[warguy]

I was reading through Eastman’s old”Golden Book” catalogue last night. This was available 10-15 years ago as a large size “brochure” from History Preservation. In that book, Gary Eastman refers to the analine dye process occurring on early vintage jackets transitioning to chrome dye on later (I assume wartime) jackets. Maybe he discovered new research when his book came out, or maybe he didn’t specify the changes as specifically in the book as he did in the introduction of the “Golden Book” catalogue? He makes it quite clear though that both processes were used in the manuafacture of original A-2’s.

 

[Officer Dibley]

What is needed is a mass gathering of jacket nuts with originals and repros and all present having the opportunity to handle all the jackets knowing the age of the jacket as well as hide and tanning method - an A-2 convention !

 

[zoomer]

But! Would an educated consumer be the best customer? Especially if he's looking to balance price and quality? I think it's better for business if he just says, "I want top quality and will pay the going rate to get it."

 

[Silver Surfer]

educated consumer? hahahahaha you are most definately of an age, and have lived at some point on the ne coast of the good ole us of a. sy syms. and, the discount store on chambers st for that "i need a white shirt right now", for one night.

 

[B-Man2]

educated consumer? hahahahaha you are most definately of an age, and have lived at some point on the ne coast of the good ole us of a. sy syms. and, the discount store on chambers st for that "i need a white shirt right now", for one night.

Sy Simms...……...Man that's a reach back! Totally forgot those places existed! Dropped a bundle in those places but you got value for your money.
Vic, Thanks for the trip down memory lane

 

[Burma Banshee]

I agree that LW leather jackets and coats squeek....and they are thik....but for me it is not a problem..What counts is it durability