Why won't my patch Google ??

[RCSignals]

While I see construction similarities I don't think I'd place a bet on where it was made.

I'm not sure they'd get away with unauthorised use of a Disney character. As far as I understand during WW2 Disney did allow 'allied' nations such as Canada use of their designs as it did US Forces.

Still can't find anything specific to a 103 squadron other than the RAF one. I did read some vague reference to a RNZAF 103 Squadron but nothing specific.

 

[unclegrumpy]

While I see construction similarities I don't think I'd place a bet on where it was made.

I'm not sure they'd get away with unauthorised use of a Disney character. As far as I understand during WW2 Disney did allow 'allied' nations such as Canada use of their designs as it did US Forces.

What you are missing is both David's patch and the Pluto patch are probably authorized patches done by the Disney Studios. I am not going to argue with you on the construction as it just my opinion, but will end that by saying it is based on seeing and handling hundreds of these types of patches.

As far as the unit identification, I don't know, but it does say 103 Sqdn on it.

My bet it is an ATC Squadron rather than a regular Squadron from the RAF, RCAF, RAAF, RNZAF or other Commonwealth nation. There is also a chance that it could have been designed by Disney and then made, but the unit got renumbered or went away. If you do a little research, and look at the designs that Disney did for US units, you will see a large number of them were for units that never wore the patches because they were disbanded before the patches were done. There is a book out called "Disney Dons Dogtags" ....I think about half of the patches in it were for units that essentially never existed.

From David's link on the RAF Bomber Command, I found this article:

http://www.throughtheireyes2.co.uk/RAF- ... HOTOS.html

Not the 103 Sqdn, but this fellow was in a ATC Squadron doing what I expect would fit for this patch. There was a 103 Sqdn ATC, but I could not find out enough about it's WW II service to link it to the patch.

Anyway, sometimes these mysteries take years to solve....and some longer.

 

[deeb7]

Still can't find anything specific to a 103 squadron other than the RAF one. I did read some vague reference to a RNZAF 103 Squadron but nothing specific.

Thanks, but I don't see anything New Zealand about the patch, other than it was found here. We have never had a 103 squadron, here's a complete list ...

http://www.enotes.com/topic/List_of_squ ... _the_RNZAF

 

[RCSignals]

I think what I must be seeing in searches are members of RNZAF who may have been seconded to RAF 103 squadron.
RAF 103 squadron appears to have been a bomber squadron, perhaps that patch is for it after all.

 

[RCSignals]

There is a 103 Squadron ATC

http://www.air-cadets-squadron-finder.o ... -corps-atc

http://www.doncasteraircadets.org/squadron_history.php

I have a feeling though David's patch isn't related. But you never know.

edit

There is also 103 Thunderbird Squadron. Royal Canadian Air Cadets in North Vancouver BC. They are at least 60 years old, however again i don't see any link between them and David's patch.

 

[unclegrumpy]

There is a 103 Squadron ATC

http://www.air-cadets-squadron-finder.o ... -corps-atc

http://www.doncasteraircadets.org/squadron_history.php

I have a feeling though David's patch isn't related. But you never know.

edit

There is also 103 Thunderbird Squadron. Royal Canadian Air Cadets in North Vancouver BC. They are at least 60 years old, however again i don't see any link between them and David's patch.

Yes, I found all of that before as well. You keep banging your head looking for the obvious, but I think it is clear the answer buried deeper. It is probably somewhere in the greater WW II RAF organizational chart, but there is not enough online information to easily find it.

I think from the patches design, it is not a full on squadron patch from a frontline unit. It looks training related. It could however, turn out to be something from the RAF 103 Squadron. Maybe they had an in house school for wireless operators and gunners, or maybe it is just a souvenir item for those guys to send home. In my mind the in house school is unlikely, because that is not a function of a combat unit. Souvenir items can be really hard to nail down, because they do not have to follow any form or regulation.

One other place David's Bomber Command link lead me to were listings of the various places in the Commonwealth that had training fields for Wireless Operators and Gunners. There were four or five in Canada. I don't know how those schools were set up, but in the AAF/USAF they could use the word "squadron" for a lot of different things. One of those can be the designation of the class group you were in. I do not know enough about the RAF's structure to say if this fits, but it is an area to explore.

The answer is out there somewhere, but it might be in an old dusty book from WW II, in the Disney archives, or in a veteran's grouping still sitting in a squashed candy box in his daughter's hope chest. David's patch probably just came from somewhere like the last place, but the family only saved the patch and tossed the history away. I wish it were easier, but we just have to keep looking, hoping, and waiting.

 

[EMBLEMHUNTER]

I don't think it's a USAAF type , I have never seen any with this style of "wing" on it, do you have any photos of USAAF type susing this style of wing in it 's design unclegrumpy ?????????????????????
It is more along the lines of the RAF/RCAF etc foriegn wing type , I still lean towards a "foriegn " unit rather than a US type.
Johnny
deeb7 have you tried "Disney dave " yet over on the US Militaria Forum about his one ???????????????????????

 

[unclegrumpy]

Johnny,

I did not say the David's patch was USAAF! What I said was the bulldog on the Canadian 135 Fighter Squadron patch I posted as an example of a Canadian made patch looked like it might be a Disney design, and was trying to compare it the bulldog on the a 61st FS patch....or better yet the AAF 62nd FS below, which is even closer....like the same design!

What is interesting, is your comment prompted my looking at the 62nd FS, and I think with that, we probably now have another Disney Studio designed patch for a Canadian unit. That in my mind really makes the likelihood of David's patch being Canadian a lot stronger.

Grumpy

 

[RCSignals]

Yes, I found all of that before as well. You keep banging your head looking for the obvious, but I think it is clear the answer buried deeper. It is probably somewhere in the greater WW II RAF organizational chart, but there is not enough online information to easily find it.

I think from the patches design, it is not a full on squadron patch from a frontline unit. It looks training related. It could however, turn out to be something from the RAF 103 Squadron. Maybe they had an in house school for wireless operators and gunners, or maybe it is just a souvenir item for those guys to send home. In my mind the in house school is unlikely, because that is not a function of a combat unit. Souvenir items can be really hard to nail down, because they do not have to follow any form or regulation.

One other place David's Bomber Command link lead me to were listings of the various places in the Commonwealth that had training fields for Wireless Operators and Gunners. There were four or five in Canada. I don't know how those schools were set up, but in the AAF/USAF they could use the word "squadron" for a lot of different things. One of those can be the designation of the class group you were in. I do not know enough about the RAF's structure to say if this fits, but it is an area to explore.

The answer is out there somewhere, but it might be in an old dusty book from WW II, in the Disney archives, or in a veteran's grouping still sitting in a squashed candy box in his daughter's hope chest. David's patch probably just came from somewhere like the last place, but the family only saved the patch and tossed the history away. I wish it were easier, but we just have to keep looking, hoping, and waiting.

Don't worry I'm not banging my head at all.

It could simply be occupation related. A patch (souvenir or otherwise) for WAG of 103 squadron. (RAF 103 Squadron?)

Generally schools were set up as a 'school' with School designation, sub sectioned into Squadrons flights etc. So it may be possible the patch represents 103 Squadron of a particular school.
The first numbers sometimes represent the number assigned ot the over command oganisation. This might be 103 squadron (the third squadron) of #1 or #10 school for example.

 

[RCSignals]

Johnny,

..........

What is interesting, is your comment prompted my looking at the 62nd FS, and I think with that, we probably now have another Disney Studio designed patch for a Canadian unit. That in my mind really makes the likelihood of David's patch being Canadian a lot stronger.

Grumpy

I don't think there is much doubt Dave's is a Disney design.

 

[unclegrumpy]

Don't worry I'm not banging my head at all.

I am glad to hear that!

 

[EMBLEMHUNTER]

Didn't the Indian AF have the half wing types for the aircrews ???????????????
If so they're another possible lead on this one .................................

 

[unclegrumpy]

Didn't the Indian AF have the half wing types???????????????

Indian AF ??? :?

 

[RCSignals]

Yes there was one

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... -Rare-Pics

but nothing about a 103 squadron

 

[unclegrumpy]

Nice link! I knew there were Indian pilots in the RAF, but I did not realize that had their own Air Force in WW II....did not think that came until a few years later when they got their independence.

 

[EMBLEMHUNTER]

I was thinking along the lines of the "foriegn" AF's that used the B-24 Liberator , possibly a sqdn from one of those ...
Johnny

 

[unclegrumpy]

I was thinking along the lines of the "foriegn" AF's that used the B-24 Liberator , possibly a sqdn from one of those ...
Johnny

That is a very good possibility. I looked into that a little bit before, thinking that there might be a connection to the Burma Bombers which I have spent time previously researching, but could not find anything conclusive. That leads us back to Canada, as that is where the Burma Bombers originated from and trained.....and where David's patch looks to have been made.


The Burma Bombers

The RAF found that the American B-24 Liberator was an effective long-range aircraft in the Far East, and soon had several squadrons of the huge planes operating on bombing, long-range patrol and supply missions. Many men in these units came from the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan’s No. 5 Operational Training Unit in British Columbia and many of the aircrew on these planes were Canadian. To this day, these Veterans refer to themselves as the "Burma Bombers."

The missions these men flew were varied; the bombers flew on solo and group missions, both by day and by night. The Liberators were often filled with tons of bombs and had crews of up to 11 men. They attacked such targets as railways, ships, bridges and enemy troop concentrations. They flew against enemy targets in Rangoon, the capital of Burma - a city heavily defended by the Japanese occupiers with flak and fighter planes. They operated from a number of airfields in places like India, Ceylon, and the Cocos Islands in the Indian Ocean. The Japanese kept fighting until the end and therefore the Burma Bombers faced danger until the final days of the war.

The men who flew on these missions faced many challenges, and the lengthy duration of the sorties was often a considerable hurdle. Sometimes these planes would have to carry two sets of flight crew because the flights were longer than one crew could safely manage. Liberators of No. 222 Group, RAF, (with 372 Canadian aircrew on strength in March 1945) undertook a series of long-range bombing and mine-laying operations that took them as far afield as Sumatra, Indonesia, in an effort to supply Allied forces and disrupt Japanese shipping.


Here is a link on the No. 5 Operational Training Unit in British Columbia:

"Once the trainees had mastered their various positions (Pilots, Navigators Bomb-aimers, Wireless Air Gunners and Air Gunners) they were sent to Abbotsford and formed into 11–man crews for operational flying training on the Liberators."

http://www.abbotsfordairport.ca/Page1029.aspx

 

[EMBLEMHUNTER]

I was thinking along the lines of the "foriegn" AF's that used the B-24 Liberator , possibly a sqdn from one of those ...
Johnny

That is a very good possibility. I looked into that a little bit before, thinking that there might be a connection to the Burma Bombers which I have spent time previously researching, but could not find anything conclusive. That leads us back to Canada, as that is where the Burma Bombers originated from and trained.....and where David's patch looks to have been made.


The Burma Bombers

The RAF found that the American B-24 Liberator was an effective long-range aircraft in the Far East, and soon had several squadrons of the huge planes operating on bombing, long-range patrol and supply missions. Many men in these units came from the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan’s No. 5 Operational Training Unit in British Columbia and many of the aircrew on these planes were Canadian. To this day, these Veterans refer to themselves as the "Burma Bombers."

The missions these men flew were varied; the bombers flew on solo and group missions, both by day and by night. The Liberators were often filled with tons of bombs and had crews of up to 11 men. They attacked such targets as railways, ships, bridges and enemy troop concentrations. They flew against enemy targets in Rangoon, the capital of Burma - a city heavily defended by the Japanese occupiers with flak and fighter planes. They operated from a number of airfields in places like India, Ceylon, and the Cocos Islands in the Indian Ocean. The Japanese kept fighting until the end and therefore the Burma Bombers faced danger until the final days of the war.

The men who flew on these missions faced many challenges, and the lengthy duration of the sorties was often a considerable hurdle. Sometimes these planes would have to carry two sets of flight crew because the flights were longer than one crew could safely manage. Liberators of No. 222 Group, RAF, (with 372 Canadian aircrew on strength in March 1945) undertook a series of long-range bombing and mine-laying operations that took them as far afield as Sumatra, Indonesia, in an effort to supply Allied forces and disrupt Japanese shipping.


Here is a link on the No. 5 Operational Training Unit in British Columbia:

"Once the trainees had mastered their various positions (Pilots, Navigators Bomb-aimers, Wireless Air Gunners and Air Gunners) they were sent to Abbotsford and formed into 11–man crews for operational flying training on the Liberators."

http://www.abbotsfordairport.ca/Page1029.aspx

Have you tried just the "wireless air gunners" schools/units, that may be where it came from, if they had these types.

 

[Andrew]

It's definitely Canadian imo, but the only reference to 103Sqdn I can find is the the RAF. Canadians did however serve with them- for example;

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showth ... Jones-RCAF
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/technolo ... story.html

Here's another similar patch- note the same commonwealth sidecap and the overall similariies to the other patches.

The text accompanying this one reads;


"Display Item Only (Appraisal Value): $350 - To: $475



DISNEY DUMBO N. ATLANTIC SQDRN RCAF CREST CRAFT PATCH!



HUGE 6.25 MULTI-PIECE FELT/WOOL PURE DETAILED ART MOTIF



This beauty is 6.25 inches from edge to edge along the little guy's wings axis. It has never been sewn on and it has zero defects, no mothing, no soiling and us 100% guaranteed era felt/wool on felt/wool construction. The rear of the patch is marked by the maker, "Crest Craft, Saskatoon SK" and is a famed Canadian company which is a heralded manufacturer in WWII and actually pre and post WWII as well.
Nothing was spared in the design or manufacture and each patch they made is a signature piece of artwork. Please take note of the beautiful shading in the felt-on-felt construction of the aircraft design, which is extremely attractive in every regard. The personnel at Crest Craft cut no corner in the care and complexity of their manufacture. Note the chain stitch and overall esthetic beauty.

As to history:

This is an original WWII Patch belonging to a Royal Canadian Air Corp DUMBO squadron. These squadrons flew Catalinas looking for downed or ditched pilots in the ocean. Ugly aircraft, the PBYs - but it was extremely versatile and strong. Used in Search & Rescue role in rescuing downed airmen. PBY airmen called their aircraft the "Cat" on combat missions and "Dumbo" in air-sea rescue service.

This was an extremely small unit and patches are extremely rare. Less than a dozen craft flew in the Squadron."

I would say that Crest Craft made all these related patches.

When you google Crest Craft you get quite a few all done in a similar style.

http://webspace.webring.com/people/jl/l ... s-nav.jpeg

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCAF-PER-ARDUA- ... 0803985405
http://tigerpatterns.com/index.php?id=522&type=milTree
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCAF-NO-122-WAL ... 0804349720

 

[unclegrumpy]

It's definitely Canadian imo, but the only reference to 103 Sqdn I can find is the the RAF. Canadians did however serve with them- for example; I would say that Crest Craft made all these related patches.

I agree!

Received an email today from a Canadian Squadron patch collector who thought David's was made by Crest Craft too. They were made in Saskatoon, SK. The Crest Craft patches often have a rubber stamped makers mark on the back, but that tends to disappear if they get wet, damp or worn. He also said he had a "Hanger Book" for the 103 Sqdn, but it did not show David's patch.

We are making progress, but it still would be nice to get this nailed down a little tighter.