Wartime A-2??

[FtrPlt]

Gents,
Here's an A-2 allegedly used by a Luftwaffe pilot during WW2. I will preface that there is photographic evidence of Luftwaffe airmen wearing 'acquired' Allied flight gear -- including A-2s, Irvins, B-3s, etc. The accompanying photos are (obviously) wartime and are of the airman wearing the jacket in question.

The 'white of the eyes' jacket art is/was unique to this LW unit. The sleeve rank and artwork are painted on.

I will refrain from giving my opinion. Not my jacket so don't worry about hurting my feelings. I don't have any additional images so no label shots, etc. I will try and get them.

My questions to you:
1. Is this an issue A-2?
2. Is the jacket in the modern photo the same as the wartime photos?

I simply don't have the knowledge of A-2s to answer question #1.

 

[havocpaul]

The images won't show on my pc but I expect they are the quite often published ones and that have I think been discussed here before. You mention a modern photo which I'd like to see, maybe it is original but of course could be a mock-up, is it on eBay? Many A-2's were 'obtained' by Luftwaffe fighter pilots and much-favoured by them, prized trophies indeed. The unit that painted the whites of eyes were Sturmgruppe pilots, they flew FW-190's with added armour so they could attack allied bombers from really close (head-on)...hence the meaning of the whites of their eyes. I would like to see a genuine 'captured' a-2 in a collection today but haven't seen one; the number of wartime photos showing them be worn by Luftwaffe pilots indicate it was not an uncommon practice.

 

[FtrPlt]

The photos and jacket are in a private collection. I don't know if the photos have not been published or not.

The jacket is not for sale and not on eBay.

I'll put the photos up on my server this afternoon. Apparently the linked photos aren't working.

I am very familiar with Luftwaffe use of captured jackets. As you state, not an uncommon practice.

 

[dujardin]

no photo for me

 

[FtrPlt]

Photos added to my original post

 

[havocpaul]

Hard to tell much from the photo, looks like an A-2 with an Iron Cross attached. Can't see any signs of similar insignia to those originals, there appears to be something on the lining, any ideas what that is?

 

[FtrPlt]

The modern photo is supposedly the exact jacket seen in the wartime photos. My issues are the:
- the location of the 'eyes' on the wartime jacket seems closer to the zipper than the smudged area on the contemporary jacket.

- the Iron Cross is not hung on loops but stuck straight through the leather. The wartime Iron Cross appears to sit much further outboard than the contemporary photo.

- bad camera angle but I see no residual traces of any sleeve rank.

"Siegfried Mueller is a friend of mine and in July 2000, he gave me the very jacket that is pictured in the photo at top. It's a great story. Basically Mueller had to make an emergency landing in his armored FW 190 on either 13 April or 29 April 1944 and shortly thereafter, a B-17 pilot landed by parachute near his plane. The men smoked American cigarettes on the wing of Mueller's Fw 190 and exchanged flight jackets before authorities arrived. Mueller wore the B-17 pilot's A-2 flight jacket for the duration of the war. In an American POW camp in Regensburg, a guard saw that Mueller was wearing a captured A-2 jacket. The guard reported this to the camp commander, who called him in to his office. Mueller explained how he acquired the jacket, which happened to have the B-17 pilot's name written in the lining. The camp commander somehow managed to contact the B-17 pilot, who confirmed the story, allowing Mueller to keep the jacket. After the war, Mueller lived in East Germany. His father was afraid that the Russians would come into their home and see the booty jacket and accuse him of being a "murderer of Allied airmen." Thus, Mueller's mother removed the lining of the jacket and put in a new one. Unfortunately, the name of the B-17 pilot is now lost to history. In July 2000, I had Mueller fully document the history of the jacket. The "Whites of the Eyes" and rank insignia has flaked off over the years, but you can see a faint impression of where they were. I am attaching three photos, one of the documentation letter from Mueller, one of the jacket as it appears today, and a photo of Mueller wearing the jacket on the day he gave it to me."

 

[Andrew]

One of the more interesting posts on here for a long time. A good story and it could be true but who's to say. Thanks. If you find out anymore let us know.

 

[arclight]

Fascinating story! Thank you for sharing.

 

[Roughwear]

The jacket is definitely a wartime issued A2. From the photo it looks like a Roughwear which has been dyed a very dark brown.

 

[Grant]

With the collar shape, epaulets and pocket flaps the jacket in the modern photo looks like a Dubow.
The vintage photos are kinda fuzzy but it looks like a different jacket. The collar shape looks completely different. Just my opinion.

 

[Roughwear]

With the collar shape, epaulets and pocket flaps the jacket in the modern photo looks like a Dubow.
The vintage photos are kinda fuzzy but it looks like a different jacket. The collar shape looks completely different. Just my opinion.

Grant, my first thought was a Dubow, but in the picture of the jacket today there appears to be a collar stand. So if my eyes are not mistaken about the collar stand it would have to be the early ac-20960 Dubow. The epaulet box stitching is not the longer rectangular variety typical of later Dubows. The collar does look more pointed that your typical RW collars, but I have seen a few RWs with more angular points than most have. We just need some close-up pics to be certain as to the maker.

 

[FtrPlt]

Gents,
Thanks for your input. I've written the owner and he's also curious about the jacket maker, etc. I've requested photos of the collar area (collar stand) and close-ups of the knits and zip to see if either have been replaced. One unsettling comment was that the zip is a brass YKK. Unknown if its just the puller or the whole zip. Both are described as brass. Here's what I have:
"The zipper pull is marked YKK. The reverse has many markings, which include an "M", YKK, what appears to be I 5 I, and on the bottom-most section of the zipper, a "5" above an "R" (the zipper an pull appear to be made of brass). Interestingly there is another well-worn zipper in the jacket pocket, which I acquired with the jacket and may very well may have been the original jacket zipper. The zipper looks like its made of of some dark-brown material while the zipper pull is made of steel and is marked WISCO."

Obviously the YKK begs many questions -- mostly notably when was it put on the jacket (presuming it's not original to the jacket)?

I couldn't find anything on "WISCO" zippers but am quite familiar with WICO zips -- a Czech company.

 

[havocpaul]

YKK zippers are 'modern' period only, not around during the war, (well the company was but was a Japanese manufacturer apparently), so is certainly a modern replacement zip from maybe the 1980's onwards. I don't think they are the same jacket at all, I find it hard to think all the insignia has (almost) disappeared without some trace of paint unless it was deliberately removed post-war so the jacket could be worn (maybe hence the zipper replacement).

 

[FtrPlt]

YKK zippers are 'modern' period only, not around during the war, (well the company was but was a Japanese manufacturer apparently), so is certainly a modern replacement zip from maybe the 1980's onwards. I don't think they are the same jacket at all, I find it hard to think all the insignia has (almost) disappeared without some trace of paint unless it was deliberately removed post-war so the jacket could be worn (maybe hence the zipper replacement).

I share the opinion that the jacket is not the same one seen in the photos. However, my opinion is based on just the photos provided and not a hands-on examination of the jacket. Simply not enough info to dismiss the story out of hand.

I also agree that some residual traces should remain of the painted on artwork. If not the artwork itself, then traces of where paint remover was used -- i.e. there apppears a blurred spot on the upper left breast. My issue with this is that it appears too far out from center to match up with the "eyes" artwork.

YKK came into being in 1946 (Yoshida Kōgyō Kabushikigaisha) after the merger of two companies. Zips were handmade up until 1950. Automated using US machinery after that. They were a domestic company until the early 1960s.

 

[havocpaul]

Whatever the origins of YKK zips that won't be original to the jacket, a close-up would confirm when abouts it was replaced.

 

[FtrPlt]

The other part of this is that the vet resided in the DDR, postwar. I suspect that YKK zips were probably not common in the Eastern Bloc. That said, the wall's been down fror 20 years so a post-1990 replacement isn't out of the question. Jacket was acquired from the vet in 2000.

Is the jacket being presumed orignal due to the story or are those-in-the-know reasonably confident it's a wartime jacket? My suspicion level is pretty high on any purported LW leather jacket.

I'll ask for hardware shots for the collar hook, snaps, etc.

 

[deeb7]

For background info, see here ...

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/FORUMS/ ... p?t=317220

 

[FtrPlt]

Correct. I'm not sure if non-registered members will be able to see any of the photos, though?

I enter the topic at post #43 and have been trading e-mails with the owner regarding details, etc.

The WA forum doesn't have the A-2 expertise of this site, hence my bringing it here to explore the nuances of the jacket.

 

[havocpaul]

I guess the jury's out until many more detailed/close-up pics are available. A close-up of the zip will determine the approx date of replacement, assuming there is no maker's label are there any stitch marks remaining; the lining would be worn/discoloured if a genuine 'used' jacket.