A
Anonymous
Guest
Nice patch work, jacket in great condition. http://cgi.ebay.com/A-2-flight-jacket-P ... 1c17fb40a4
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Peter Graham
Well-Known Member
Absolutely beautiful. I'd love to own that.
deand
Active Member
I need to explain the last post I made. The nametag strip reference was to a thread that was recently about the variations in namestrip lettering fonts of various sizes as it pertained to reproduced namestrips being faithful reproductions. This jacket has a very nice variation in lettering style. The patch size reference was to a homemade patch I made that I made that I thought was too large of the 7th Bomb Group. This jacket is good evidence of the fact that larger patches were made and used. The last part, about "Our Love" 'bombing' was a joke about relationships going bad, using the name of the plane painted on the back of the jacket and the fact that is was a bomber. The jacket is a fine original, and even if I could afford it, it would be too small, Too bad!
dean
dean
I seen this auction also.
I have a few questions about the jacket though.
The shoulder patch shows quit a bit of wear and the inside of the jacket is fairly soiled. Now if you take the front patch and the painting, they seem to be in excellent condition. I don't see any cracking in the paint specially on the painted plane. The only spots that look like cracks is the low spots in the leather where the paint didn't get applied.
What do you guys think? Do you think it's and all original WWII era painted jacket?
I have a few questions about the jacket though.
The shoulder patch shows quit a bit of wear and the inside of the jacket is fairly soiled. Now if you take the front patch and the painting, they seem to be in excellent condition. I don't see any cracking in the paint specially on the painted plane. The only spots that look like cracks is the low spots in the leather where the paint didn't get applied.
What do you guys think? Do you think it's and all original WWII era painted jacket?
Roughwear said:
I've seen his auctions over the past years and I've often questioned a lot of them.
I'm still very leery about this one. I still think the paint does not look correct.
One thing the paint doesn't look old, no cracking or wear. And if this jacket was painted back in the WWII days I'm pretty sure the artist would of not left the low spots in the leather unpainted. He would of been careful enough to have painted those areas in.
I have seen faked painted jackets before and one thing some of the fakers do is only paint the higher areas of the leather leaving a few of the lower areas uncovered. By doing so it makes the painting look older than it really is.
shedonwanna
Active Member
If the 388th patch is a repro it is one of the best I've seen; it's one of the best condition vintage I have seen. It looks better than some I have seen that were never sewn to a jacket. Vintage 388th patches were not painted but stained with dye - like this one. The design outlines were stamped and then colored by hand; this patch is exactly like vintage patches I have seen. They were just over 6 inches tall. The second veteran to own the jacket could have added the 388th patch when he accquired the jacket. The 388th group patch was usually worn on the right but I have seen two examples of the patch on the left with the name strip.
I am an associate member of the 388th association and a past president. I have seen many 388th patches and jackets and have been painting reproductions of 388th patches for 30 years. I have known some veterans that did not sew their patches on jackets until they returned home. Many, like the copilot on my dad's crew, traded their B-10s for an A-2 after their missions were complete. The following image is a vintage 388th, variation name strip and all on the left. I believe some of the early crews would put the group patch with the name strip and once all squadrons had arrived and squadron patches were being produced the group patch moved to the right side and squadron patches were placed on the left. Overall, the 388th group and squadron patches were mass produced and all appear to have been made from a common stamp. There were some variations produced by individuals with some artistic ability but these are few in number and rarely seen. I have searched high and low, with no success, for 30 years to find out who made the patches and what became of the stamping tools used to make them. If only the jacket on eBay could talk - two veterans, 60 plus years and how many collectors have had this jacket!
I am an associate member of the 388th association and a past president. I have seen many 388th patches and jackets and have been painting reproductions of 388th patches for 30 years. I have known some veterans that did not sew their patches on jackets until they returned home. Many, like the copilot on my dad's crew, traded their B-10s for an A-2 after their missions were complete. The following image is a vintage 388th, variation name strip and all on the left. I believe some of the early crews would put the group patch with the name strip and once all squadrons had arrived and squadron patches were being produced the group patch moved to the right side and squadron patches were placed on the left. Overall, the 388th group and squadron patches were mass produced and all appear to have been made from a common stamp. There were some variations produced by individuals with some artistic ability but these are few in number and rarely seen. I have searched high and low, with no success, for 30 years to find out who made the patches and what became of the stamping tools used to make them. If only the jacket on eBay could talk - two veterans, 60 plus years and how many collectors have had this jacket!
TankBuster
Active Member
As mentioned previously, I am very certain the
patch is good. I know he has some good jackets
in his collection. I just bought a fighter pilots jacket
from him. I knew it was totally legit since I was
involved in the bidding years ago when the family
sold it on eBay. I guess what I'm saying is that not
all of his items are fake however you have have to
be careful and know what you are doing!
patch is good. I know he has some good jackets
in his collection. I just bought a fighter pilots jacket
from him. I knew it was totally legit since I was
involved in the bidding years ago when the family
sold it on eBay. I guess what I'm saying is that not
all of his items are fake however you have have to
be careful and know what you are doing!
Like the jacket and the patch but even without this forum something about that painting just doesn't look right. The wear of the painting doesn't appear equal to that of the SSI and the worn parts of the jacket IMO. One could argue it was painted after much of it's wear occurred. While I could never modify such a beautiful patched jacket but with such a painted jacket selling for maybe 3 times that of one that is only patched, there is sure an incentive to do so.
Add to it that
a) This person is a repeated "seller" of jackets, and
b) he has been found selling newly painted vintage jackets before
and I would want to be positive it was authentic with some provenance, etc. Lot's of guys proud enough to have such a jacket also have multiple period photos of them wearing it. Not that it is always common to obtain a pic but before I commit this type of money to a known, past "faker", it would require such provenance. Trouble is such a pic might exist and is how the jacket could have been accurately reproduced.
JMO,
Dave
Add to it that
a) This person is a repeated "seller" of jackets, and
b) he has been found selling newly painted vintage jackets before
and I would want to be positive it was authentic with some provenance, etc. Lot's of guys proud enough to have such a jacket also have multiple period photos of them wearing it. Not that it is always common to obtain a pic but before I commit this type of money to a known, past "faker", it would require such provenance. Trouble is such a pic might exist and is how the jacket could have been accurately reproduced.
JMO,
Dave
If the jacket had been painted at the end of the war then this would account for the wear extending beneath the paint. With this jacket the paint work perhaps needs to be examined in person. I have heard of vets touching up the paintwork on their jackets long after the war ended, perhaps to wear it to a re-union. However the seller's reputation does make one wonder about any painted A2s he sells.
Yeah that was another thought. The paint looks very thick and bright white in places. I was showing Linda how oily the collar and sleeves are yet the white on the plane is very bright and heavy - yet with complete occlusions in the grainy folds.
The somewhat tangent view of the orange letters show very superficial looking cracks on the high spots of the grain that I would think would have worn down, shrunk, or flaked off years ago. Also the paint "wear" appears to have no consistency with the jacket's wear and graining.
Beating a dead horse - IMO most originals were fairly smooth to begin with and obtained the deep folds and pebbles over a long time. Some broke in quickly with regular wear, rainy England, etc. Repro makers have proven this is very hard to reproduce.
So I like the jacket but not the paint that seams to supersede the grain.
JMO,
Dave
The somewhat tangent view of the orange letters show very superficial looking cracks on the high spots of the grain that I would think would have worn down, shrunk, or flaked off years ago. Also the paint "wear" appears to have no consistency with the jacket's wear and graining.
Beating a dead horse - IMO most originals were fairly smooth to begin with and obtained the deep folds and pebbles over a long time. Some broke in quickly with regular wear, rainy England, etc. Repro makers have proven this is very hard to reproduce.
So I like the jacket but not the paint that seams to supersede the grain.
JMO,
Dave
TankBuster
Active Member
$3400 + currently, apparently some people think it's good.
shedonwanna
Active Member
The group patch appears to have been "restored" or touched up at some point. The vintage patches I have seen were not tooled yet some of the outlines on this patch have some debossing and have been darkened compared to some of the other lines. As seen in the attached image some yellow and orange paint can be seen on the jacket just above the patch - touched up while on the jacket? Overall, the patch is bright and glossy. All of the vintage patches I have seen were faded and had no gloss to them - even the ones which were never sewn to a jacket. This appears to be original art that has been restored. Without documentation we don't know the who or when but was very well done.
Wow, those two different colors of paint are pretty damning. I suppose one accustomed to "modifying" such a jacket would make the excuse that it's paint from the PO from house work, etc. What's a little more deception compared to revealing the full deed? Not likely on such a "pride" jacket and with those strange colors.
I would be very miffed if I received it this way. How one can be so crafty as to restore this to the level of maintaining controversy about it among big collectors and yet overlook these spots is amazing.
I am still convinced that fuse is an overpaint (even more now) and I'm saddened that someone paid that much - likely drunk with the overall theme(which is quite nice). Some will argue, "Perhaps the buyer would be okay with that, I would if it was well done.......", etc. but I would expect one with no mods to go for that. Bottom line, the seller's purpose was to deceive.
IMO that's pretty much top of the market price right now for a jacket with no additional provenance. Current economic situation aside.
It's easy to see how the "glaze" has darkened the black lines in some spots.
JMO,
Dave
I would be very miffed if I received it this way. How one can be so crafty as to restore this to the level of maintaining controversy about it among big collectors and yet overlook these spots is amazing.
I am still convinced that fuse is an overpaint (even more now) and I'm saddened that someone paid that much - likely drunk with the overall theme(which is quite nice). Some will argue, "Perhaps the buyer would be okay with that, I would if it was well done.......", etc. but I would expect one with no mods to go for that. Bottom line, the seller's purpose was to deceive.
IMO that's pretty much top of the market price right now for a jacket with no additional provenance. Current economic situation aside.
It's easy to see how the "glaze" has darkened the black lines in some spots.
JMO,
Dave
