USN Jackets - Doing a bit of research into M-422, M-422A, AN-J3A, AN-6552, G-1: 55J14 and MIL-J-7823 series

[Lord Flashheart]

I'm doing some research with Maydaywei, Mulceber, B-Man2 and Jorgeenriqueaguilera into these USN jackets with the aim of us posting a bit of a beginners guide here. The idea is an overview that a total newbie can pick up and by the end have a sound understanding of the evolution of these jackets through the specifications over time.

We'd like to draw on the knowledge on the Forum please and post the odd question here from time to time. If you're able to help with our questions that'd be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Phil

 

[pierregloom]

This is something I'd really enjoy to read, as I am a "Total Newbie" eager to learn more !

 

[Sideslip]

I would be avidly interested in this!

 

[Lord Flashheart]

Here’s a question for the Forum please.

There are various differences that might distinguish the M-422 and the M-422A specification. Some suggest it is the inclusion of a pencil slot/sleeve in M-422A. But this exists in the Switlik and Monarch M-422.

Some suggest its pocket width (the left as worn being wider to accommodate the pencil slot) But the H&L Block and Willis & Geiger M-422A have equal width pockets.

What else is there? Horizontal stitching on the collar reverse? That’s not found on M-422 contracts. But it’s also absent on H&L Blocks M-422A.

Silk stitching might be a difference. But that can be found on the W&G M-422A.

So, we’d like to put this question to the Forum. What‘s the difference between these two specifications?

Thanks !

 

[Nickb123]

Were the collars on the M422 series a little larger than the a?

 

[Sideslip]

There are various differences that might distinguish the M-422 and the M-422A specification. Some suggest it is the inclusion of a pencil slot/sleeve in M-422A. But this exists in the Switlik and Monarch M-422.

I asked JC a similar question when I got my Monarch. He commented that - and I hope it is ok to quote this here:

M-422 jackets: there's a huge amount of mis-information about the pen slots that was perpetuated by Gibson & Barnes (jacket maker in California). They said the M-422/M-422A jackets only had a sewn pencil slot. That was only Gordon & Ferguson who originally did that, and to have even pocket sizes, they made the pen slot pocket wider. No other company did that, but all companies had the pen slot. Later in the war, L.W. Foster made their AN-J-3A with a sewn pen slot, but it was a sewn cloth slot where the stitching could be seen on the outside leather, but both pockets were the same size.

 

[mulceber]

I asked JC a similar question when I got my Monarch. He commented that - and I hope it is ok to quote this here:

M-422 jackets: there's a huge amount of mis-information about the pen slots that was perpetuated by Gibson & Barnes (jacket maker in California). They said the M-422/M-422A jackets only had a sewn pencil slot. That was only Gordon & Ferguson who originally did that, and to have even pocket sizes, they made the pen slot pocket wider. No other company did that, but all companies had the pen slot. Later in the war, L.W. Foster made their AN-J-3A with a sewn pen slot, but it was a sewn cloth slot where the stitching could be seen on the outside leather, but both pockets were the same size.

That definitely helps to clear up the misinformation. Did JC happen to say what the did distinguish the M-422 from it’s successor?

 

[Sideslip]

That definitely helps to clear up the misinformation. Did JC happen to say what the did distinguish the M-422 from it’s successor?

Unfortunately not... I just ran a general search to understand what the USN procurement nomenclature was in late '30s/early '40s to understand why they would add an 'a' designation. The 422 /422A designation labels are different from the later 7823(A)-(E), so I was wondering what that meant (if anything at all, and probably nothing). I landed on this Library of Congress https://blogs.loc.gov/inside_adams/2013/03/wwii-detail-from-war-supply-contracts/ , but further work needed on that point, and more particularly, to see if the actual m422 / m422a contract could be found online. Will see what else I can find.

 

[mulceber]

Unfortunately not... I just ran a general search to understand what the USN procurement nomenclature was in late '30s/early '40s to understand why they would add an 'a' designation. The 422 /422A designation labels are different from the later 7823(A)-(E), so I was wondering what that meant (if anything at all, and probably nothing). I landed on this Library of Congress https://blogs.loc.gov/inside_adams/2013/03/wwii-detail-from-war-supply-contracts/ , but further work needed on that point, and more particularly, to see if the actual m422 / m422a contract could be found online. Will see what else I can find.

I'm starting to suspect, from what I've been seeing so far, that the M-422a was less a new jacket type and more a re-designation that clarified the specs. In other words, the Navy was basically saying "hey, we've had 3 contracts so far, but we were kinda loosey-goosey on the details up to this point, and we saw some features we liked, others that we didn't. So now we're issuing a new jacket type to make it more explicit exactly what we're looking for in our intermediate flight jackets."

I could be completely wrong on this. That's just what makes the most sense to me based on the information we've been seeing.

 

[Lord Flashheart]

I agree with you Jan it certainly seems that there's much more that unites the two contract specifications than divides them.

 

[917_k]

Nice, looking forward to this! As the owner of 9 different G-1s (M422A through to 7823E), you could say I’m a little bit obsessed with this jacket as well.

 

[Sideslip]

I'm starting to suspect, from what I've been seeing so far, that the M-422a was less a new jacket type and more a re-designation that clarified the specs. In other words, the Navy was basically saying "hey, we've had 3 contracts so far, but we were kinda loosey-goosey on the details up to this point, and we saw some features we liked, others that we didn't. So now we're issuing a new jacket type to make it more explicit exactly what we're looking for in our intermediate flight jackets."

I could be completely wrong on this. That's just what makes the most sense to me based on the information we've been seeing.

I agree.

The following may be at a slight tangent from the original question, but sharing anyways. I was trying to find the actual specification nomenclature document which would dictate how and why something is called what it is and from there try and identify the actual specification, but am totally dependent on what has been digitised. Some of the things I have been looking for are the actual specification (unlikely to find), year of introduction... found something and random other things.

From the Bibliography of Scientific and Industrial Reports Volume 4 1947 is the m-422a which appears to have been introduced in December 1940 (2nd item). I tried to cross-reference 'pb48926' but no joy. [Note the next row "Lambskin, baby", err, what?]

However, a rather interesting browse is this (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...vy jackets leather intermediate m-422&f=false):

This is what is issued to an 18 plane squadron (different doc exists for carrier air divisions), dated April 1943 in which we see an m-422, with a % of the different sizes. The largest allocation was of 28% each of size 38 and 40. Size 46 is 2% and size 48 is 1%. There is a reference in column 4 "For quantities of flight and protective clothing items, see BuAero Allowance List of Flight and Protective Clothing, dated January 1942." Note the 'stock number' which would have been from a catalog. If you do a new google search for stock numbers, then you find similar items referred to (including up to 1950):

 

[sgbailey2002]

It's been awhile as I've not been on here for a few years and no longer collect jackets...but my recollection is every M422 I owned or saw had real short sleeves as compared to an M442A. I never did get one that fit me. I think Grant had an M422 that fit, but he had to go to a larger size to get sleeves long enough.

 

[Grant]

Hey Skip!
Yup still have it (Willis&Geiger sz 44 M422), and she fits just fine. Good to see you posting again!

 

[STEVE S.]

It's been awhile as I've not been on here for a few years and no longer collect jackets...but my recollection is every M422 I owned or saw had real short sleeves as compared to an M442A. I never did get one that fit me. I think Grant had an M422 that fit, but he had to go to a larger size to get sleeves long enough.

Hey Skip!
hope all is well!

 

[sgbailey2002]

Hey Skip!
Yup still have it (Willis&Geiger sz 44 M422), and she fits just fine. Good to see you posting again!

Grant, would you believe the 2 repro A-2's I still have are the 'red' Aero and the Real McCoys I sold you and then bought back? I do have a couple of original USN jackets though.
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