USAF use of Army nomex jackets?

[herk115]

Sorry. My reference to USAF helo guys in multicam was for in-theatre (AfghanLand) crews. Army guys switch back to UCP flight gear upon return. I'm nearly positive the bag is gone from the Army. The last hold-outs would be ejection-seat aircraft and I don't think the Army has any left.

Hey, another thing I'm curious about is those green boots I see stateside USAF crews wearing with their bags. Looking at the Belleville website I see that there is a set of green boots "authorized for flying." Are these green boots mandatory now, or can black ones still be worn? And if black boots are available, are the full leather 8-P boots still around? Just curious because these green boots make the guys look like they're wearing sneakers with their bags and...I don't like it...nossir, I don't like it! In the air force *I* was in, we had to wear black leather boots with our bags. Shined.

 

[Phantomfixer]

Herk,
The FWU-8P...
I dont think these have been issued for 10 years or so...When I retired in 05, I saw a few guys still wearing them, but most switched to the new sneaker style boot..Me? I prefer the old black leather boot with the leather tab and quick pull laces...very good leather and construction...

 

[FtrPlt]

The leather boots are gone. I think even the wear-out date for the leather ones was quite a while ago. The FWU-8 was the lighterweight version with the fold-over leather cuff at the top and had a pretty neat speed-lace system. I resoled my last pair five times before the leather became too worn to hold together. My favorite pair of boots

The FWU-3's can still be found on eBay. These are lined and are pretty decent winter boots. I didn't really care for the zippers on them -- never found a really good way to put them in. I still have a few pairs from back-in-the-day if anyone needs to see how I laced the zips in. There was no correct way to do it that I recall

After Scott O'Grady was rescued, a study was done on footwear. I guess he had some major trenchfoot/foot issues. Subsequent studies show the synthetic boots (I think USAF was using an all black version for a while?) outperformed the leather boots across the board.

I saw USAF guys wearing the tan, Army Belleville flying boots once in a while. However, I think green is now the order of the day -- no exceptions (well.... except for the Guard, maybe!)

 

[herk115]

I saw USAF guys wearing the tan, Army Belleville flying boots once in a while. However, I think green is now the order of the day -- no exceptions (well.... except for the Guard, maybe!)

Are the green ones mandatory or can the black synthetic boots be worn? I think Belleville makes a black pair "authorized for flying." Come to think of it, though, the last time I was in the military clothing store at Edwards (two years ago?), all they offered for sale were the green. So is black out as well?

 

[herk115]

Herk,
The FWU-8P...
I dont think these have been issued for 10 years or so...When I retired in 05, I saw a few guys still wearing them, but most switched to the new sneaker style boot..Me? I prefer the old black leather boot with the leather tab and quick pull laces...very good leather and construction...

Wah. I thought Toy Company was still wearing the 8P, but apparently not. I'm gonna miss them. The most comfortable boots I ever wore.

 

[flightmac]

Re: USAF use of Army nomex jackets?/flight boots

Well, according to Chapter 8, Flight Duty Uniform in Air Force Instruction 36-2903, DRESS AND PERSONAL APPEARANCE OF AIR FORCE PERSONNEL, Incorporating Change 1, 1 JUNE 2012 (so this is current) http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf:

8.9. Footwear. In-garrison, wear any combat boot that is authorized in paragraph 6.4.3 through 6.4.3.3 For flight operations; follow the authorized aircrew boot guidance IAW AFI 11-301V1. Lace-up zipper inserts may be used. The black or sage green boot is authorized for wear with the FDU (italics mine).

AFI 11-301, Volume 1, Certified Current 8 MARCH 2011, http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a3_5/publication/afi11-301v1/afi11-301v1.pdf states:

2.10.13.1. Flight Boots. The primary aircrew boots, as authorized in AS 016, are the FWU-3/P, FWU-8/P, and the lightweight model 700, 770, 790 and sage green 690 Belleville® Aircrew Boot. Lace-up zipper inserts may be used.

So, to me it sounds like you can wear your FWU-8's to fly, but you have to change into green boots afterward.

I still have a couple or so stored away, hopefully to last me. I usually wear a shined pair in my job as a U. S. Air Force Civil Service electronics instructor. Probably sounds a bit much, but most people don't know what they are anyway. However, I have had a few students admire them and ask about them.

 

[herk115]

Re: USAF use of Army nomex jackets?/flight boots

I still have a couple or so stored away, hopefully to last me. I usually wear a shined pair in my job as a U. S. Air Force Civil Service electronics instructor. Probably sounds a bit much, but most people don't know what they are anyway. However, I have had a few students admire them and ask about them.

I know what you mean. I wore my 8Ps for years with my uniform as a fire department civil servant, and no one questioned it.

And yeesh, I'd forgotten how difficult those damn regs are to understand. A quick perusal of what you sent tells me anything still goes, but all they're going to give you are those green things.

 

[herk115]

Re: USAF use of Army nomex jackets?/flight boots

And yeesh, I'd forgotten how difficult those damn regs are to understand. A quick perusal of what you sent tells me anything still goes, but all they're going to give you are those green things.

Well, after an even closer perusal, it looks like *only* the green boot is authorized with the green bag, on or off flight line, flying duties or non-flying duties. What is the AF coming to?

 

[Phantomfixer]

Pretty soon no pilots....only RC controllers...

 

[FtrPlt]

Pretty soon no pilots....only RC controllers...

Here's the (re) activation of the 91st Attack Squadron. Formerly the 91st TFS Bluestreaks at RAF Bentwaters during my time. Now Predator/Reaper drone squadron. Note the 'flight crews' get to wear the bag :roll:

 

[Monsoon]

Re: USAF use of Army nomex jackets?/flight boots

Well, after an even closer perusal, it looks like *only* the green boot is authorized with the green bag, on or off flight line, flying duties or non-flying duties. What is the AF coming to?

Yep, my squadron went to the green boot in 2011. I think November was the "drop dead" date unless you had a very, very good excuse (odd foot size, etc). I know everyone was whining, "but there's a waiver for AFSOC, etc" but it was just BS. I didn't care, it's all about getting free stuff.

 

[Monsoon]

Here's the (re) activation of the 91st Attack Squadron. Formerly the 91st TFS Bluestreaks at RAF Bentwaters during my time. Now Predator/Reaper drone squadron. Note the 'flight crews' get to wear the bag

Yeah, let's not go there about drone operators wearing flight gear. I wonder how soon command will catch on they'll save a butt-load of cash by stopping that? I think AFSPACECOM saved something like $600K a year by not issuing their guys flight gear. And they were getting it all; jackets, bags, boots, freakin' gloves! Tell me, what are the fire hazards in a drone or satellite operations room?

 

[FtrPlt]

Yeah, let's not go there about drone operators wearing flight gear. I wonder how soon command will catch on they'll save a butt-load of cash by stopping that? I think AFSPACECOM saved something like $600K a year by not issuing their guys flight gear. And they were getting it all; jackets, bags, boots, freakin' gloves! Tell me, what are the fire hazards in a drone or satellite operations room?

While I like to pick on the drone guys, they provide a very real and valuable service and I do have a great deal of respect for the operators and the capabilities they provide. But...... for flight gear?? Fair game! What's next, HGU-55 and mask??

If they need to make these guys feel special, maybe they can issue them the piles of nomex-blend ABE uniforms USAF is no longer using.

 

[herk115]

What's next, HGU-55 and mask??

I think a parachute would be more appropriate. After all, that was a live and armed office chair!

I just hope that when he experienced that engine and instrument failure he maintained aircraft control, assessed the situation, took appropriate action, and landed as soon as conditions permitted.

 

[Monsoon]

While I like to pick on the drone guys, they provide a very real and valuable service and I do have a great deal of respect for the operators and the capabilities they provide. But...... for flight gear?? Fair game! What's next, HGU-55 and mask??

I agree. And if things had worked out at my unit, I'd have stayed in and did the drone deal instead of retiring. I think the job would be a hoot.

But flight gear is a bit too much. There's no need. I know the drone guys like to counter, "But why do aircrew wear their bags when they aren't flying?" My answer is that the Guard is cheap and I only got one set of ABUs but three sets of flight suits. And if it's such a burden, just re-write the regs and say aircrew can't wear them when they aren't flying. Simple.

 

[Hobbstc]

While I like to pick on the drone guys, they provide a very real and valuable service and I do have a great deal of respect for the operators and the capabilities they provide. But...... for flight gear?? Fair game! What's next, HGU-55 and mask??

I agree. And if things had worked out at my unit, I'd have stayed in and did the drone deal instead of retiring. I think the job would be a hoot.

But flight gear is a bit too much. There's no need. I know the drone guys like to counter, "But why do aircrew wear their bags when they aren't flying?" My answer is that the Guard is cheap and I only got one set of ABUs but three sets of flight suits. And if it's such a burden, just re-write the regs and say aircrew can't wear them when they aren't flying. Simple.

I would counter with "because they do fly, not operate, and they put their butts on the line." I appreciate UAS as a former Intel Officer, but there's a very real difference between them and actual pilots.

Be careful before some AF Flag decides to make you wear two piece ABU flight suits like we get in the Army.

 

[Monsoon]

Be careful before some AF Flag decides to make you wear two piece ABU flight suits like we get in the Army.

Know how long those have been on the books for us? I think I had to submit my sizes at least three different times over the course of 20 years for two piece flight suits. I wouldn't hold my breath. :lol:

 

[Phantomfixer]

great cartoon.... :lol:

 

[FtrPlt]

I would counter with "because they do fly, not operate, and they put their butts on the line." I appreciate UAS as a former Intel Officer, but there's a very real difference between them and actual pilots.

Be careful before some AF Flag decides to make you wear two piece ABU flight suits like we get in the Army.

That's the same argument the Space Command guys just lost. Sitting in chairs in a control room is not, IMO, flying. Can you make significant contributions that effect the battlefield? Yes. Stressful? Absolutely. Operating something that's flying? Yes. Is the operator actually flying? No unless the operator is controlling from another aircraft.

Aircraft (no distinction made for manned or unmanned) operating in the continental US in controlled airspace are required to have a commercial (or ATP) pilots license. This is a gross simplification but basically you need an instrument rating to operate a drone. Outside the US? Depends on where you go. US Army drones are operated by non-rated enlisted/NCOs and I haven't heard or read about any colossal failures as a result of their not wearing nomex, bars, or sporting wings.

 

[Hobbstc]

I would counter with "because they do fly, not operate, and they put their butts on the line." I appreciate UAS as a former Intel Officer, but there's a very real difference between them and actual pilots.

Be careful before some AF Flag decides to make you wear two piece ABU flight suits like we get in the Army.

That's the same argument the Space Command guys just lost. Sitting in chairs in a control room is not, IMO, flying. Can you make significant contributions that effect the battlefield? Yes. Stressful? Absolutely. Operating something that's flying? Yes. Is the operator actually flying? No unless the operator is controlling from another aircraft.

Aircraft (no distinction made for manned or unmanned) operating in the continental US in controlled airspace are required to have a commercial (or ATP) pilots license. This is a gross simplification but basically you need an instrument rating to operate a drone. Outside the US? Depends on where you go. US Army drones are operated by non-rated enlisted/NCOs and I haven't heard or read about any colossal failures as a result of their not wearing nomex, bars, or sporting wings.

I was agreeing with you. I was countering the argument that UAS pilots should wear flight gear.