John Lever
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Turret Gunner
- Thread starter John Lever
- Start date
Steve27752
Well-Known Member
Cold and lonely.
This is a great picture of an air gunner. I guess the set up dates to 1944, although this picture is of a static display in the Yorkshire Air Museum. He is wearing a C-Type helmet, G-mask and MkV11 goggles, plus an IRVIN! The picture has been cropped and aged.
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Cool display! I have often thought of combining my hobbies and creating such dioramas. I envision the side of a bomber with stringers and cables visible with an M-2 or a navigation table and a seated mannequin with great flight gear.
This pic shows what it could look like but who has this kind of room?!
Dave
This pic shows what it could look like but who has this kind of room?!
Dave
Rutger
Well-Known Member
I think turret or ball gunners and tail gunners were about the loneliest job one could have as a crew member in a bomber .
http://untoldvalor.blogspot.nl/2007/08/ball-turret-gunners-breed-apart.html
"Ironically, thought of as being the most dangerous position in a B-17, it turned out to be one of the safest-as far as suffering battle wounds. The gunner, curled up in the ball in a fetal position with his back against the armor plated door, had less of his body exposed to enemy fire than the other crew members."
http://untoldvalor.blogspot.nl/2007/08/ball-turret-gunners-breed-apart.html
"Ironically, thought of as being the most dangerous position in a B-17, it turned out to be one of the safest-as far as suffering battle wounds. The gunner, curled up in the ball in a fetal position with his back against the armor plated door, had less of his body exposed to enemy fire than the other crew members."
regius
Active Member
There's no body! eww, looks creepy, like a taxidermy of a head.This is a great picture of an air gunner. I guess the set up dates to 1944, although this picture is of a static display in the Yorkshire Air Museum. He is wearing a C-Type helmet, G-mask and MkV11 goggles, plus an IRVIN! The picture has been cropped and aged.
Smithy
Well-Known Member
My Dad had a mate who had been a pilot on Lancs. He told the old man some terrible stories of them having to hose out what was left of the tail gunner. The good Jerry night fighters/experten used to try and knock out the tail gunner first and then the top turret so they could make repeated rear attacks to knock out the engines.
Horrific stuff, Dad reckoned the poor bugger was seriously mucked up mentally from it.
Horrific stuff, Dad reckoned the poor bugger was seriously mucked up mentally from it.
Smithy
Well-Known Member
Bomber Command is not my main area of interest so had a bit of a poke around online and even had a poke in a book of two. Apparently tail gunners had the lowest survival rate of any RAF aircrew and although there seems to be a slight variance, most put the average survival time at 4 to 6 ops. Either way it must have been absolute hell. Because it was night probably many didn't see a thing before they were hit or many poor fellows who suddenly saw a string of glowing balls rapidly streaking towards them. And all that being stuffed in a space smaller than a cupboard for hours upon hours on end.
I can't even begin to imagine the discomfort, cramp, fear, anxiety, and the sheer exhaustion of staring constantly into the night in the hope of seeing an almost invisible enemy so you can perhaps have some small chance of saving the other lives of your mates onboard.
I can't even begin to imagine the discomfort, cramp, fear, anxiety, and the sheer exhaustion of staring constantly into the night in the hope of seeing an almost invisible enemy so you can perhaps have some small chance of saving the other lives of your mates onboard.
falcon_ib
Well-Known Member
I once had the chance to fly tail gunner in a B-25 as we flew in formation with P-51's, Yak's, and a Sea Fury. What an experience!
Years ago I was also given the opportunity to fly in the Collings Foundation's B-17 and B-24 several times. I flew with two friends, one of whom flew a tour in a B-24 and then another as a scouting force pilot in a P-51. It was amazing being with him in his flight suit and A-2 and of course crusher cap while flying in a B-24.
My friend Jack flew 28 missions over Europe in the ball turret of a B-17 and hadn't been in one since 1944. It was a surreal experience for him and I find this picture of him very powerful.
Years ago I was also given the opportunity to fly in the Collings Foundation's B-17 and B-24 several times. I flew with two friends, one of whom flew a tour in a B-24 and then another as a scouting force pilot in a P-51. It was amazing being with him in his flight suit and A-2 and of course crusher cap while flying in a B-24.
My friend Jack flew 28 missions over Europe in the ball turret of a B-17 and hadn't been in one since 1944. It was a surreal experience for him and I find this picture of him very powerful.
Grant
Well-Known Member
Meet Snuffy Smith. Probably the real life inspiration for Cool Hand Luke, Buzz Rickson and a few other Hollywood characters:
Maynard Smith was born in the small town of Caro, Mich., on May 19, 1911. He was the son of a school teacher and a successful attorney, and had the reputation early in life as being spoiled, trouble prone, and an absolute nuisance to others around him. He lived off of an inheritance and worked as a tax field agent until his misconducts caught up with him. A failure to pay child support charges caused the judge to offer Smith two options: jail or the military.
"When I went into the Army, a group of 30 of us assembled on the courthouse steps for a picture. While we were lining up, the sheriff came down the steps with Maynard Smith beside him... in handcuffs," quotes author/researcher Allen Mikaelian.
At the age of 31, Smith hated taking orders from men who were usually 10 years younger than him. Smith shocked his basic training instructors by volunteering for Aerial Gunnery School in Harlington, Texas. Since this field was the quickest route to gaining rank, Smith was promoted to staff sergeant after completion of training and assigned to the 423rd Squadron, 306th Bomb Group in Turleigh, England.
In the days where B-17's had a 50 percent survival rate, Smith went out on his first mission and significantly made history. On May 1, 1943, stepping in as a replacement, his mission was to bomb St. Nazaire, France, better known to bomber crews as 'Flak City.' Smith's small physique made him perfect for the position in the ball gunner turret.
When his aircraft was hit repeatedly by flak and cannon fire from FW-190s, Smith stepped up to the plate rendering first aid to the wounded crewmen. In the heat of combat, he also manned machine guns desperately throwing exploding ammunition overboard.
The aircraft suffered from severe damage, cutting the wing tank off and causing gasoline to pour inside the plane catching it ablaze.
"At this point, I had lost my electrical controls and I knew something was wrong," said Smith. "I manually cranked the thing around, opened the armored hatch and got back in the airplane when I saw it was on fire. The radioman became excited and jumped out the window without a parachute. "
With the oxygen system and intercom shot, and crew members bailing out, Smith stayed aboard and assisted an injured tail gunner.
With a fire onboard burning violently and melting everything in sight, Smith wrapped himself in protective clothing and completely extinguished the flames by hand. Alternating between manning the available machine guns, applying first aid to his comrade and fighting the fire that had began to weaken the B-17's fuselage, Smith commenced to throw everything out of the rear of the plane that wasn't too hot, too heavy or bolted down.
Because of his heroic efforts and saving the lives of six remaining wingmen, the aircraft made it out of the 'hot' zone and landed safely near the southwest tip of England.
"Somehow we got the plane back," Smith said. "The plane was riddled with about 3,500 bullet holes. It was all burned out in the center. There was nothing but the four main beams holding it together. Ten minutes after we landed, the plane collapsed." The sheer fact that the plane stayed in the air while hauling Snuffy's massive balls is a testament to the toughness of the B-17.
For his actions, Smith was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor by the Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson. This would be the first Medal of Honor presented to a living Airman, the first awarded to an Airman for heroism in the European theater, the first awarded to an enlisted Airman and the first Medal of Honor to be presented by the Secretary of War in the theater of action.
During the preparation of the ceremony, leadership failed to inform Smith of the presentation, which lead to an embarrassing moment for everyone involved. With the band in place, the Secretary of War waiting at the podium and the bombers prepared for their flyover, 'Airman Snuffy' was nowhere to be found. A search party was released to find the war hero, and he was eventually located scraping leftovers from breakfast trays after being placed on KP duty for disciplinary reasons. This scenario, reported by the Stars and Stripes, shocked the world, but was nothing new to the men of the 306th Bomb Group.
"In the real military such men are the misfits that cannot be changed, only tolerated; until they can be transferred elsewhere and become someone else's problem. They are certainly not the kind of soldier one expects to become a genuine hero as had Sergeant Maynard Smith. Perhaps no one in the 306th Bomb Squadron was more surprised that Snuffy Smith had become a hero to the Air Force and a household name back in America, than the disheveled little man himself," said Andy Rooney, a fellow Airman and author of the book 'My War.'
After completing four more combat missions, Smith was seen by the medical board and diagnosed with "Operational Exhaust" and was reassigned to a non-combat clerical post with reduction of rank to Private. For a Medal of Honor recipient to be demoted is still hard for many to comprehend.
Smith died on May 11, 1984, and was buried in Arlington National Cemetery.
Maynard Smith was born in the small town of Caro, Mich., on May 19, 1911. He was the son of a school teacher and a successful attorney, and had the reputation early in life as being spoiled, trouble prone, and an absolute nuisance to others around him. He lived off of an inheritance and worked as a tax field agent until his misconducts caught up with him. A failure to pay child support charges caused the judge to offer Smith two options: jail or the military.
"When I went into the Army, a group of 30 of us assembled on the courthouse steps for a picture. While we were lining up, the sheriff came down the steps with Maynard Smith beside him... in handcuffs," quotes author/researcher Allen Mikaelian.
At the age of 31, Smith hated taking orders from men who were usually 10 years younger than him. Smith shocked his basic training instructors by volunteering for Aerial Gunnery School in Harlington, Texas. Since this field was the quickest route to gaining rank, Smith was promoted to staff sergeant after completion of training and assigned to the 423rd Squadron, 306th Bomb Group in Turleigh, England.
In the days where B-17's had a 50 percent survival rate, Smith went out on his first mission and significantly made history. On May 1, 1943, stepping in as a replacement, his mission was to bomb St. Nazaire, France, better known to bomber crews as 'Flak City.' Smith's small physique made him perfect for the position in the ball gunner turret.
When his aircraft was hit repeatedly by flak and cannon fire from FW-190s, Smith stepped up to the plate rendering first aid to the wounded crewmen. In the heat of combat, he also manned machine guns desperately throwing exploding ammunition overboard.
The aircraft suffered from severe damage, cutting the wing tank off and causing gasoline to pour inside the plane catching it ablaze.
"At this point, I had lost my electrical controls and I knew something was wrong," said Smith. "I manually cranked the thing around, opened the armored hatch and got back in the airplane when I saw it was on fire. The radioman became excited and jumped out the window without a parachute. "
With the oxygen system and intercom shot, and crew members bailing out, Smith stayed aboard and assisted an injured tail gunner.
With a fire onboard burning violently and melting everything in sight, Smith wrapped himself in protective clothing and completely extinguished the flames by hand. Alternating between manning the available machine guns, applying first aid to his comrade and fighting the fire that had began to weaken the B-17's fuselage, Smith commenced to throw everything out of the rear of the plane that wasn't too hot, too heavy or bolted down.
Because of his heroic efforts and saving the lives of six remaining wingmen, the aircraft made it out of the 'hot' zone and landed safely near the southwest tip of England.
"Somehow we got the plane back," Smith said. "The plane was riddled with about 3,500 bullet holes. It was all burned out in the center. There was nothing but the four main beams holding it together. Ten minutes after we landed, the plane collapsed." The sheer fact that the plane stayed in the air while hauling Snuffy's massive balls is a testament to the toughness of the B-17.
For his actions, Smith was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor by the Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson. This would be the first Medal of Honor presented to a living Airman, the first awarded to an Airman for heroism in the European theater, the first awarded to an enlisted Airman and the first Medal of Honor to be presented by the Secretary of War in the theater of action.
During the preparation of the ceremony, leadership failed to inform Smith of the presentation, which lead to an embarrassing moment for everyone involved. With the band in place, the Secretary of War waiting at the podium and the bombers prepared for their flyover, 'Airman Snuffy' was nowhere to be found. A search party was released to find the war hero, and he was eventually located scraping leftovers from breakfast trays after being placed on KP duty for disciplinary reasons. This scenario, reported by the Stars and Stripes, shocked the world, but was nothing new to the men of the 306th Bomb Group.
"In the real military such men are the misfits that cannot be changed, only tolerated; until they can be transferred elsewhere and become someone else's problem. They are certainly not the kind of soldier one expects to become a genuine hero as had Sergeant Maynard Smith. Perhaps no one in the 306th Bomb Squadron was more surprised that Snuffy Smith had become a hero to the Air Force and a household name back in America, than the disheveled little man himself," said Andy Rooney, a fellow Airman and author of the book 'My War.'
After completing four more combat missions, Smith was seen by the medical board and diagnosed with "Operational Exhaust" and was reassigned to a non-combat clerical post with reduction of rank to Private. For a Medal of Honor recipient to be demoted is still hard for many to comprehend.
Smith died on May 11, 1984, and was buried in Arlington National Cemetery.
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Silver Surfer
Well-Known Member
"hauling snuffy's massive balls"........classic.
MikeyB-17
Well-Known Member
They landed at Predannack on the Lizard peninsula, not a million miles from me. It’s still there, a satellite airfield to RNAS Culdrose. My mate flies gliders there for the ATC, and I’ve flown from there in one myself. Somewhere I have pictures of the old Harriers which have been left there. Barnes Wallis did experiments there on swing wing aircraft, and there are still concrete structures in the grass from that time.
‘Snuffy’ Smith didn’t make himself terribly popular after getting the MOH, either. Apparently all ranks are required to salute a MOH winner, and he insisted on it, which can’t have gone down well.
‘Snuffy’ Smith didn’t make himself terribly popular after getting the MOH, either. Apparently all ranks are required to salute a MOH winner, and he insisted on it, which can’t have gone down well.
ausreenactor
Well-Known Member
Dad has this one and it always gets a read when we swing by at Christmas.
https://www.amazon.com/Gunner-Illustrated-History-Aircraft-Positions/dp/1550463322
Do it..
https://www.amazon.com/Gunner-Illustrated-History-Aircraft-Positions/dp/1550463322
Do it..
dinomartino1
Well-Known Member
Maintenance on the ball turret of a Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) B-24 Liberator.
Flight Sergeant Bruce Colin Geeves RAAF an air gunner in a Liberator bomber of 99 Squadron RAF, checks over a ball turret before taking off for a record-breaking raid on Mandalay.
Flt Sgt Geeves was lost on operations over India on January 21 1945 while serving with 99 Squadron RAF, and is buried in the Maynamati War Cemetery in Bangladesh.
Gunner Cliff Briggs RAAF sitting behind the guns in his aircraft
RAAF B-24 Liberator waist gunners.
Berca, Cyrenaica, Libya. c. June 1944. An air gunner of No. 454 Squadron RAAF climbes into the mid-upper turret of a Martin Baltimore aircraft prior to take off.
Training RAAF air gunners
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dinomartino1
Well-Known Member
Port Moresby, New Guinea. 1942. An RAAF air gunner sits in the turret of a Sunderland flying boat
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