The veg tanned conspiracy rant !

[Juanito]

Indeed, case in point, Lost Worlds horsehide.

 

[jeremiah]

And I hear tell that it takes a millennium to tell any wear on a LW.
Be careful what you ask for I guess.

 

[Skyhawk]

Forgive my ignorance but aniline is a finish, not a method of tanning, right? You can chrome or veg tan the leather itself, then apply an aniline, semi-aniline, or pigment finish, regardless of tanning method, correct?

For example, my Diamond Dave Cable was chrome tanned, but aniline finished, whereas my garden variety Eastman was veg tanned, but semi-aniline finished.

Ironically, the Avirex, Cooper, Lost Works, US Authentic, et al being chrome tanned and pigment finishe'd are a more accurate representation to an original than the "high end" veg tanned, aniline finished copies.

The thing that hasn't really been discussed is that regardless of the tanning method, the finishes today are vastly different mainly due to the restrictions on the chemicals used in the finishes.

Yes correct. I did not explain it too well thanks!

Also the hides at Headwind Mfg are chrome tanned. Pigment, semi, and full aniline finishes. I believe they are closer to the original hides than the vegie tanned samples I have handled. Sure some different chemicals are used but I believe you can still get a great likeness to the original hides using chrome tanning. If a full aniline finish is used, the hide will age nicely and show wear.

 

[Kennyz]

I find this to be a very interesting thread, this subject is not often discussed.

Ken

 

[Geeboo]

i always prefer veg tanned leather in bags, shoes snd furniture ,their patina is great and imo much more durable, for jkts, most of mine are chrome tanned

 

[jeremiah]

Pigment finish is opaque color. Aniline is transparent to semi transparent which accounts for the depth achieved only with aniline and semi aniline finished leathers. The originals had pigment finish.

Pigment will repel Water more readily and is tough as nails. Aniline finish will show marks and stains more readily.

My BK dubow i redyed and have shown here multiple times had a pigment finish on it and is closer to originals for that matter. It was said to be veg tanned.

How the dye is applied can also affect how that leather Will age and look with wear and patina. There is drum dyeing where the hide is tumbled inside a giant drum with the dye and there is spray application and there is also hand application.
The spraying will produce the most evenly applied dye opposed to the more mottled look that drum dye and hand dye applications produce.

 

[Nickb123]

Slight diversion but were some M-422s/ANs, etc veg tanned? Or is that wear one often sees (the reddish undertones) merely chrome+analine?

 

[Skyhawk]

Slight diversion but were some M-422s/ANs, etc veg tanned? Or is that wear one often sees (the reddish undertones) merely chrome+analine?

Chrome tanned.

 

[jeremiah]

Reddish undertones is the base coat of the leather prior to the pigment finish application. Pigment finish wears away revealing it. The base coat leather will oxidize and this is a cool effect which is not emulated often enough in modern repros.

I have seen Ken’s leather and BK liberty hide do it. Jay, if yours does that with wear than congrats and great job.
I feel this is an authentic way to finish the hide.
BK liberty hide is aniline finished too so there is a way for this to get that look via use while still using veg tanned aniline finished hides.

 

[Brettafett]

Funny you mention that J, look at these pics of an original M442a - https://www.vintageleatherjackets.o...-a-ww2-named-flight-jacket.23222/#post-246231

 

[jeremiah]

Brett I noticed those too last night. That’s some cool looking leather but I was meaning more of the rubbing off around the pocket flaps, collar and edges.
But that M442 could be undergoing that same result on a bigger scale. I just can’t see the pics close enough to tell.

Sort of what ELC does with their 50 cal treatment (though done poorly IMO).

 

[Cocker]

You mean like this?

 

[jeremiah]

Definitely. Thanks Cocker for the great example.

 

[Cocker]

You're welcome! I LOVE how my jerky HH A-2 is ageing!

 

[Julius]

Officer Dibley

I like this thread, I will participate.

the 100% veg tanning of modern repros is bullsh1t.

I agree with you. But t's not the repro makers trying to rip us off. It's the tanneries trying to rip off the repro makers.

I think its’ use was far less prevalent than ELC etc state

I don't think ELC said there was veg tanned leathers. ELC has said that there were aniline horsehide to which I disagree.

I think that every time you see a period photo of a jacket and think it drapes a lot and the hide must be thinner, you are looking at chrome tanned / analine. Every time the jackets looks stiffer, it’s veg tanned.

No, drape depends on how soft and how thin/thick the leather is. Tanning method makes no difference.
If you are looking at photos and some A-2 jackets drape differently than others, or don't drape too much then it's the thickness.
The specification for thickness of WWII horsehide is 1-1.2 mm and trust me the 0.2mm is huge difference in drape and weight of the jacket.

Of course the 2mm horsehide that Skyhawk wrote is completely non sense, but then again the guy doesn't know which animal produces capeskin

 

[Pilot]

...WW2 patina and grain.
I only know of one maker who can match these...BTW the 38” Bronco is looking for a new home.... ( Bronco = the two first pics).

 

[33-1729]

Officer Dibley

I like this thread, I will participate.



I agree with you. But t's not the repro makers trying to rip us off. It's the tanneries trying to rip off the repro makers.



I don't think ELC said there was veg tanned leathers. ELC has said that there were aniline horsehide to which I disagree.



No, drape depends on how soft and how thin/thick the leather is. Tanning method makes no difference.
If you are looking at photos and some A-2 jackets drape differently than others, or don't drape too much then it's the thickness.
The specification for thickness of WWII horsehide is 1-1.2 mm and trust me the 0.2mm is huge difference in drape and weight of the jacket.

Of course the 2mm horsehide that Skyhawk wrote is completely non sense, but then again the guy doesn't know which animal produces capeskin

This is a finer point that only engineers and scientists may appreciate, where using standard defined significant figure rules place clear boundaries on a specification measurement. During A-2 manufacture the horsehide/cowhide/goatskin thickness [two significant figure] specification requirement was from 0.025” to 0.045” (correctly converted from 0.64 to 1.1mm) and measurements from the time show goatskin on the thinner side, horsehide on the thicker side, and cowhide somewhere in the middle. In Mr. Eastman’s excellent book there is a test measurement for horsehide showing a three significant figure measurement of 0.0452” that would round down to the two significant figure requirement of 0.045” and meet specification, but given how they measured it (at three significant figures) a measurement of 0.0455” would fail the 0.045 specification requirements as that would be rounded up to 0.046” (the two significant figures required in the spec). In other words, 1.2mm would fail the specification requirement as written.

Skyhawk used a figure of 2mm that is way too high, but I do think some of the reproduction jackets made today are around that range, though back in the day 1.2mm would be too thick.

 

[Geeboo]

marvelous jacket Pilot - love it !

 

[Officer Dibley]

I find this to be a very interesting thread, this subject is not often discussed.

Ken

Thank you !

 

[Julius]

33-1729 other than ELC's book, where do you get your info?

The 7823 specification for the G-1 jacket states that the goatskin should be 2/64 to 3/64 inch thick. I have not seen the spec for M422 and other wartime Navy jackets but I don't think the thickness was ever changed.

The WWII spec for horsehide states 2 1/2 to 3 gauge ounces (1 to 1.2mm). This is not converted by me it's their words.

And FYI I have handled 1 or 2 Navy goatskin jackets thicker than any horsehide of modern repro makers.