The High Cost of Repro Jackets

[dmar836]

Thought we could have a dedicated discussion here.

Not intending to pick on any one member but the following are some comments from another recent thread. I perceive the sentiment is not uncommon:

"Point being that a cotton lined wool knit brass zip A2 jacket can be sold at a profit for $150."

"Now, you pay extra for the simple expedient of using panels that incorporate armpit and A hole leather like back in the day. All these features are of course infinitely desirable and irrelevant when, the finished item is more expensive than what you would spring for some creation by Luigi vertorollorellici of Milan.
The likes of me are unable, and frankly unwilling, to throw bad money after good."

"Well I guess the only option is to continue to be taken roughly from the rear by jackets that cost eight times the price....I suppose I believe that $1,000 and up up up a throw is purely there to indulge snobbery, be it monetary or authenticity. The cost over value differential is blown out of the water in my opinion. Proven by this offering by WPG. There has to be some middle ground."

I did call this thread "The High Cost of Repro Jackets" for a reason. Cost is quite different from price.

I beg of the repro makers either to resist posting or at least resist feeling attacked if you do(others will likely defend your viewpoints).

You are safe here. Discuss.

 

[foster]

There are so many factors that influence the cost / price, that I find it difficult to discuss this topic in broad generalizations.

Just a few factors, all of which have a direct correlation on the cost and price.

Customization of fit (or the lack of making custom sizes) - this one is a chief factor
Selection of hide and what parts of the hide are/are not used
Hardware (original zippers versus repro, etc)
Knits, thread, and lining
Capabilities of manufacturing (personnel, machinery)

Some other factors that are not directly linked, but have influence in customer perceptions:
Manufacturer quality
Extent of product photos and their quality
Brand loyalty
Word of mouth

This is not something that can be easily discussed in depth without weighing in numerous factors. At least, I can't personally view it without exploring the details.

 

[John Lever]

I think over the years the costs of materials and production have slowly crept up. When my children were much younger in the early 1990's I would look at jackets and think ' I like that but it's more than I can afford ' Then about ten years ago my outgoings were more manageable so it was easier for me to buy what I wanted. Since 2008 the GBP has devalued by about 20 to 30 percent and China has emerged as the major consumer of sheepskin so that raw material prices have increased dramatically. Manufacturers have been forced to pass this on to the consumer. Emerging markets in the far east have provided a new wealthy customer base and I suspect are now the major buyers rather than the US and Europe. What were once garments designed to be purely functional are now luxury goods. Also the attention to detail in repro jackets today is leagues ahead of those 20 years ago. This has been driven by people like us on forums like this.
I hope to be able afford to buy jackets from time to time but realise that I have to sell something to fund a new purchase.

 

[Atticus]

High-end reproduction jacket making probably yields itself fairly well to a simple "free market" analysis. I say this because there doesn't appear to be any insurmountable obstacles to entering the industry. Yes, good jacket making requires skill and knowledge...but neither are things that can’t be learned by a dedicated person in a relatively short period of time. Especially someone who already has a solid background in the industry. And I don’t think becoming a jacket maker requires a particularly large capital investment, nor are there any complicated legal constraints in jacket making, at least none that I know of.

Now before I go further, I’m not saying that my hat isn’t off to John and Mark and all of our other friends in the industry. I’m just saying that launching a jacket making business that sells primarily over the internet is probably not any more difficult than starting many other kinds of manufacturing or service firms. If you doubt what I say, just think of how much skill, education, compliance with legal constraints and capital investment is required to start even a small medical practice. Now multiply that by how many medical practices there are just in your home town.

So, without any consideration of prices or costs...because neither are relevant to this analysis…if there is an inordinately large profit margin in making reproduction jackets, over time, new manufacturers will be drawn into the market and prices will fall until a "normal" return is established. On the other hand, if making high-end reproductions is more a labor of love than of profit, then the number of makers in the industry will likely remain low and prices could actually continue to climb.

AF

 

[MikeyB-17]

I can't claim to be any expert on the subject, but I do recall John Chapman saying, during his efforts to get GW up and running, how expensive it was to do things like reproduce a label exactly. I also recall Jon at Aces High mentioning the thousands it would cost to reproduce a zip from scratch. There is a big difference between getting all the details as close as possible to a wartime jacket, and just using whatever modern equivalents are available, and these costs have to be passed on to the customer. I can't imagine most makers scouring the Globe for just the right WWII-style snaps, they just use the closest ones they can get without paying too much. Most customers are quite happy with this, but there are those who want it as close as possible, and as long as there are people prepared to pay the money, then there are makers who can and will supply what they want. On top of the cost of manufacture and development they also need to make a profit, and I am now wondering how much the major players are making in that department. I guess it's worth their while, as ELC/Aero etc. are still around and selling jackets. It seems the Japanese in particular have a thirst for vintage Americana, flight jackets included, and are prepared to pay top Dollar (or Yen) for it. I recall Ken at Aero saying how much of their market is in Japan. The cost of high end repros seems to have spiralled in recent years, but still people seem to be buying them. Whether out of snobbery, or a desire to own something as close to a WWII jacket as possible (I'd order a new Goodwear if I had the cash, but I'm unlikely to be in such a position), but the market is obviously there.

 

[Rutger]

We calculate and sell following the below formula:
cost=labour+overhead+materials+overhead.
labour = the direct number of hours needed to complete one product, multiplied with cost/hour.
The cost/hour for a one person bussiness will basically be determined by (1) the money necessary to fulfill all one's needs of life during a period of time, (2) the number of products that can be made during that period of time.
materials = all direct costs spent to get the materials to complete one product.
overhead = all costs not related to one specific product, but still required to run the bussiness. Over a certain period of time this can be simplified to a percentage of both materials and labour. Think of administration, machinery, electricity, research, hiring of personnel not directly involved in the production process.

For our products we handle 58 euro/hour for labour, 65 euro/hour for designing, materials according to quotations from suppliers, and overhead roughly 37% over hourly rates and roughly 20% over materials. All numbers ex VAT.
We have very little control over the cost of material: the market will determine these. Sometimes you're lucky, sometimes not.

I like to think that above does explain that prices of ELC and BK are roughly in the same league, with BK having lower cost of personel, higher quality of leather, and a lower profit margin in order to remain as competitive as possible.
I have no proof to support this statement.

 

[Atticus]

I can't claim to be any expert on the subject, but I do recall John Chapman saying, during his efforts to get GW up and running, how expensive it was to do things like reproduce a label exactly. I also recall Jon at Aces High mentioning the thousands it would cost to reproduce a zip from scratch. There is a big difference between getting all the details as close as possible to a wartime jacket, and just using whatever modern equivalents are available, and these costs have to be passed on to the customer. I can't imagine most makers scouring the Globe for just the right WWII-style snaps, they just use the closest ones they can get without paying too much. Most customers are quite happy with this, but there are those who want it as close as possible, and as long as there are people prepared to pay the money, then there are makers who can and will supply what they want. On top of the cost of manufacture and development they also need to make a profit, and I am now wondering how much the major players are making in that department. I guess it's worth their while, as ELC/Aero etc. are still around and selling jackets. It seems the Japanese in particular have a thirst for vintage Americana, flight jackets included, and are prepared to pay top Dollar (or Yen) for it. I recall Ken at Aero saying how much of their market is in Japan. The cost of high end repros seems to have spiralled in recent years, but still people seem to be buying them. Whether out of snobbery, or a desire to own something as close to a WWII jacket as possible (I'd order a new Goodwear if I had the cash, but I'm unlikely to be in such a position), but the market is obviously there.

I think that's right. I expect John is making a decent living doing something he loves, but I haven't seen a huge wave of new high-end makers entering the industry...at least not yet. I'm guessing the cost of making spot-on repros in small volume is pretty high and John's profit margin...even at 1200 USD per jacket...is not unreasonable.

AF

 

[havocpaul]

I do think the price of top end repros has become more and more restrictive in recent years, no doubt the cost of raw materials and financing the increasing demand for accuracy and "perfection" is part of that reason. I am not so sure that the prices in some cases have not in some ways been dictated by the selective market particularly Japan. The likes of Buzz Rickson and The Few have gone way off the scale price wise but when I look at the recently launched Eastman biker range, it can only be that they are aiming and hoping for the Japanese market and so can price accordingly. I recently took ownership of what turned out to be one of the very first Aero A-2's from the early/mid 1980's and it still stands well alongside more recent jackets from the other repro makers, admittedly it has had enough wear to make it look like an original now but even so, unless one wants NOS zipper etc, it looks excellent. Have we come so far away from those early repros that prices are so high? It would have been in many ways harder starting completely from scratch back then making accurate repros as there wasn't a precedent. So with the seemingly endless quest for the vintage leather hide, hardware and that "looks like an original" accuracy it seems the price will only increase. For me it is hard to look to paying more for a repro than it would be to buy a good original and my days of buying several repros every year have sadly long gone, priced out of the market. There are cheaper options as mentioned elsewhere, it would be good if the current makers could perhaps offer a decent cheaper alternative, Aero used to do their Aero Flight label and Eastman's house jackets used to be a good price, however, they too have now increased substantially.

 

[dmar836]

If there was truly a middle ground it would be offered and it is - in the form of G&B, Cockpit, etc.

Having just made my first jacket, I can say that, even with months of searching, gathering, pricing, and finally the use of publicly available parts, I spent easily over $300 just in raw materials. Now, drop the NOS zipper and you still have $250. What economies of scale are out there that will reduce the cost THAT much more plus adding in a few more proper parts. I work 12hr shifts so find it hard to equate an 8hr work day but I'd say it took me 3-4 solid work days. Tracing and cutting, joining, etc. kills my back and the rest is "thoughtful" sewing time - not like zipping off a tote bag. Switching gear for different materials(liner, edge guides, etc.) along with other multi-media work(setting snaps, hooks, zipper shortening) makes it a necessarily inefficient process and not one you can do ahead of time without lots of inventory and potential waste. Bespoke makers do all this. They don't make 100 one-size-fits-all liners nor pull one type of snap or zip from the bin for every jacket. It's an up and down, thoughtful process.
We don't need to talk about mandatory health care costs now imposed on the self-employed and the lack of a retirement plan. These guys are taking some pretty big risks to offer that, "A-hole leather".
The issue to me is there is as much time spent building a jacket with "pleather", hardware store snaps, and a C&C zipper as there is in building a nice jacket. So those low price jackets must be a bargain.
Well, I suspect the market for such a middle-of-the-road jacket is not nearly as strong as voiced when one is frustrated at the high-end prices or there would be many comparison threads showing how "not perfect but close" these other jacket are.

BKs first offering was around $350. Who got one? I inquired but got lost in the communication about materials availability, etc. and was not persistent.
I looked about a year ago and they were up to $750ish. Now they are over $1000. This is not dogging BK but they tried to be that middle-of-the-road-alternative. If above-average zips, snaps, and better hides were all it takes to fill such a large niche, they would have stayed there - according to their initial mission statement. It quickly became obvious to me that the pressure of, "if you only had the right snaps I'd be in..." took over and made them up their game. That extra effort to have knits, zips, snaps, and labels made in bulk, not to mention the cost travel to find reliable sources of hides, raises the material cost to more than we wish to admit. Haven't several had jackets made with their hides and custom requests at G&B. So what keeps us from going that route.

I would challenge anyone to try it. I'm not hanging a sign up, nor am I qualified, BUT tell me you found the perfect hide with the weight and finish you like, that you have sourced all the hardware you want. Add it all up - thread, snaps, hook, knits, zipper, hide, lining material and thread, label. Gather that all up in a box and then see how much you have left to pay anyone to assemble it for the total price of a WPG at $150 or G&B at $398. I'm not offering this service, nor does anyone, as it ain't happening. Even with free labor, or the Chinese version, one would be forced to source lower quality leather and/or parts if one wanted to eat.

Ideas?

 

[foster]

When these garments were made during the war, the jacket makers did not have to source the materials (hides, zips, snaps, etc) as those were sourced by the Army. They could focus purely on manufacturing once the patterns were drafted. Today's makers have to source everything, pattern, and fabricate.

They also had assembly line production and economies of scale which are absent in today's replicas.

Can these jackets be made somewhat less expensive than they are now? Sure, if you're willing to forego the custom sizing, pattern selection, and hide selection. But when these cost in the range they do, who wants to accept the loss of choice? And even then the reduction on price would not be significant although the delivery time might perhaps be improved.

There is no hide selection or customization in the lower cost jackets. You can't pick the contract you want, the color, zipper, etc. You simply take what you get and return it if it doesn't work.

 

[YoungMedic]

They are only worth what someone is willing to pay :mrgreen:

 

[colekwok]

Since 2008 the GBP has devalued by about 20 to 30 percent and China has emerged as the major consumer of sheepskin so that raw material prices have increased dramatically. Manufacturers have been forced to pass this on to the consumer. Emerging markets in the far east have provided a new wealthy customer base and I suspect are now the major buyers rather than the US and Europe.

They are only worth what someone is willing to pay :mrgreen:

John, I am not sure if it is really true that there was a hike in China's demand in leather. I am not aware that they are producing a lot of luxury leather goods, are they? On top of that, China have some huge tanneries as well. If there really was price hike in leather material, Ikea would be selling their whole sheepskins for over a 100quids rather than a mere 30. And if you look at some US jacket manufacturers such as Vanson, G&B etc, their pricing seems to be quite steady over the years. I still think the huge price hike of our jackets due to inflation of raw material is a bit of a B.S.

But I absolutely agree on the supply and demand theory. Around 5 years ago, there were like 2 or 3 tiers of A-2 repro makers. But somehow, ELC started a huge increase in price as they decided that they were as good as John Chapman. And we all know the rest of the story, then it was Aero, then John, then BK. Say, for example, ELC Star A-2 was less than £600 a few years ago compared to £749.99 right now, not the biggest of price increase, but considering that it is now using a repro Talon rather than an NOS one, it just makes you wonder...... Aero's 38-1711-P was less than £400 just two years ago, and now? £530 please.

 

[Anonymous]

If there really was price hike in leather material, Ikea would be selling their whole sheepskins for over a 100quids rather than a mere 30. And if you look at some US jacket manufacturers such as Vanson, G&B etc, their pricing seems to be quite steady over the years. I still think the huge price hike of our jackets due to inflation of raw material is a bit of a B.S.

No assumptions please. Leather prices have increased and there are market reports that can be found online that verify this.

Vanson etc use cheap leathers and for the prices they sell have so huge margins that still remain largely unaffected by the raw material price hikes.

Knowing enough inside information I can vow that the price increases from all the companies were justified. Don't forget that quality has also increased dramatically. For example, old ELC jackets cannot compare to current.

Not only leathers but all costs have increased and market/investment risks faced by manufacturers have also increased.

And obviously, you cannot compare the prices that IKEA is buying with the prices that any of the above mentioned makers can get.

 

[colekwok]

If there really was price hike in leather material, Ikea would be selling their whole sheepskins for over a 100quids rather than a mere 30. And if you look at some US jacket manufacturers such as Vanson, G&B etc, their pricing seems to be quite steady over the years. I still think the huge price hike of our jackets due to inflation of raw material is a bit of a B.S.

No assumptions please. Leather prices have increased and there are market reports that can be found online that verify this.

Vanson etc use cheap leathers and for the prices they sell have so huge margins that still remain largely unaffected by the raw material price hikes.

Knowing enough inside information I can vow that the price increases from all the companies were justified. Don't forget that quality has also increased dramatically. For example, old ELC jackets cannot compare to current.

Not only leathers but all costs have increased and market/investment risks faced by manufacturers have also increased.

And obviously, you cannot compare the prices that IKEA is buying with the prices that any of the above mentioned makers can get.

Platon, well then, it is not you guys then. Then I would probably blame the leather producers and the tanneries.

 

[Anonymous]

It's not the tanneries fault either.
It's the financial crisis which caused people to eat less beef.

Mulberry's profits eaten up by rise in leather prices
9 December 2013

Mulberry's half-year profits fell because hard-up consumers ate less beef and the shortage in cow hides drove up leather prices.
The luxury goods firm, whose latest ad campaign is pictured, also said sports car makers had driven strong demand for leather hides contributing to a 28 per cent fall in pre-tax profit to £7.2million for the year to September 30, 2013.
Chief executive Bruno Guillon also blamed the cost of opening stores in international markets, and a 5 per cent fall in wholesale revenues as European shops took a more cautious approach to placing orders, for the drop in earnings.

 

[wop54]

I'm afraid I know nothing but if I had money I'd buy a high cost A2 repro right now, this one thing I know

 

[Peter Graham]

Too much greed in this world. End of story.