Repros vs originals, prices ?

[Bombing IP]

Now we are seeing high end repro new A2 jackets becoming out of reach of so many would be buyers, will we see an increase in sales of low end A2 jackets which are sold by UK companies such as Soldier of Fortune and Epic Militaria ?

Has anybody have any experience of these jackets?
John

Sure we will see an increase in the low end jackets but not from the members of this forum . That's the market share where the customers do not know any better neither do they care .These companies are set up to sell to that fashion volume market with in a price range ,here we are talking plain business ."High end repro's out of touch !" not if you buy used on eBay .But you have to play the waiting game to find your size ,Good Wear A-2 jackets are selling in the $500 -$750 range used if you check the completed sales listing .So there is still hope unless you are a uncommon size then you have to buy new with the nice option to return if it does not fit .

 

[galvestonokie]

after 15 years of so watching, collecting, making some bad purchases, and a few outstanding purchases, i can second the feelings of most of the posts in this trail. i am a big fan of USN jackets, having served in naval aviation as enlisted flight crew. am hard to fit, and my dimensions have a way of changing (now 6'1", 205#). i am a huge fan of the bi-swing back, but have found many of the original mouton collars to be uncomfortable. this may a bit ironic as i understand the mouton collars were added to limit chafing (about 80 years ago). my thoughts:

it takes years of watching, and a little luck, to find an original jacket that fits. i purchased a Gordon & Ferguson size 48 in VCG with provenance of a Navy pilot, WWII, flying the Navy variant of the B-24 out of Duxford, UK. awarded the DFC for assisting in sinking a U-Boat in the Bay of Biscay. in researching him and his squadron, they lost many more people and aircraft due to bad weather than to enemy action. funny thing is, the jacket is too large for me now. but who knows...

i haven't purchased one of John's jackets, mainly because i have a number of very nice G-1 series jackets. all are pre- or very early G-1 series, because of the quality of leather and workmanship. a couple are remarkable (the G&F for example). JC's prices are a bit breathtaking, but quality takes longer--in materials, workmanship, design, and savvy. if you don't want to pay JC's prices--then don't. but you shouldn't be critical of JC or his customers. if there was no demand at his price point, the economics would take care of things. not everyone wants to pay $2-5K for a wrist watch when a good G-Shock will last a while. but some do. c'est la vie.

i don't wear my best originals, they are packed away. not a museum, but taking care of them for the next generation.
at the risk of being a bit gross, not all want to wear a pre-owned jacket because a lot of body oil, sweat and DNA remain in the jackets.

like all others, this is only my opinion. and i am entitled...

 

[Phantomfixer]

wasn't knocking Goodwear, ELC, Aero, LW, BK, etc....I am a supporter of the repop A-2 market...invested heavily in their products....In 30 years I have owned LW, ELC, Aero, Cockpit, and some of the lower end repops I think they are all skilled, highly skilled craftsmen,, same as any person highly skilled in their trade...just not artisans

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Well maybe you could meet half way and at least say that JC's creations or re-creations, utilize a significant amount of artistic license. By definition his jackets may not be art, but his work is considered by many as a work of art, the very definition of such. So it is accurate to call a Goodwear jacket a work of art. He is an artist, I'm pretty sure he told me that he used to paint back in the day. To pay such attention to detail and render a jacket so close to an original pattern? to me it is very close to painting someones face as opposed to a face. But for the past 35 years I've only painted portraits, sculpted figures, built master models, and now I sew patches, so what do I know :?: :lol:

Eastman jackets on the other hand are done as back in the day in an assembly line. I think one skilled person does this and the next does that. Going down the line, I'm guessing the other manufacturers have a similar process.

 

[herk115]

Using only the best exotic skins, laborious finishes, dedicated hardware, exacting craftsmanship and specifications, obsession with minutiae and low volume artisan production was always a recipe for ever increasing prices.

Isn't this the basic conundrum of the repro vs. vintage? The high-end repro has all the above features and is supposedly an exact recreation of the original, yet the original was done in the haste and lower standards of wartime production and utilized whatever materials were available, be they superb or inferior, and craftmanship, be it competent or incompetent. The originals were produced with whatever materials and method would get the jackets out to the crews ASAP. In this sense, then, is the high-end repro really a true repro? It could be argued that a mass-produced, say, U.S. Authentic, for example, would be more authentic than the high-end repro. Not pointing fingers, just giving food for thought.

 

[herk115]

ahhh the good angel whispers in your ear. not to worry, aus, the other angel will be back in due time. "disposing" is only one aspect of the cycle. that is to say, disposing of stuff makes room for ????. and it begins again, hahaha

I discovered the hard way (finally) only a year or two ago that once you sell this stuff, it's gone! I mean, it's never coming back. So I'd advise you keep it. Store it someplace out of the way where it will be protected. Get rid of it only if it absolutely, positively, will not ever fit you again. Oh, the things I let my (now) ex-girlfriend twist my arm into selling! Mark my words, there will come a day when you'll remember a certain special A-2 and you'll fish it out of the storage shed, and you'll feel really great wearing it again! I wish much of my stuff was still around so I could experience that feeling again!

As an example, though my flying days are over, I still have my helmet and oxygen mask (don't tell the air force). I'll never ever use it again, but every year or two it feels so good to put it on again, or to even take it out of the helmet bag and just look at it. I could do none of that if I'd sold it.

Then again, if your mind is made up and you can make me a good deal on that A-2... :shock:

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Can't say I miss a jacket that way but I know what ya mean. To this day I wake from time to time almost in a cold sweat over a Luger, 03 Springfield, and k98 I sold for an ex. Three very near mint examples I'll never see again. Eat sh*t Rachel :lol:

 

[Juanito]

This, is a very interesting thread...

BTW, I love the photos of some of avatars of the F-4 Phantoms, the third greatest aircraft after the P-47 Thunderbolt and #2, the F-86 Sabre.

Anyway...my interest and acquisition of A-2 jackets started in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Occasionally, one could find one for maybe $200 at the local military antique shop. I, like many others here (way before the internet), "discovered" The Cockpit and it's thin little catalog in the mid/late 1980's, then there was Eastman, Lost Worlds, and then the glut of repros which ironically seemed to happen way after the "bomber jacket" craze happened in the late 1980s. At one time or another I have probably owned an example of nearly every one of them, up to 1999 or so.

Also odd, given that the going rate was about $400 for a decent original in about 1988-89, originals are cheaper today than they were 25 years, in today's dollars. Very odd.

When I moved to NYC in 1998, I was shocked that one could by G-1s at the open air flea markets on the eastern seaboard for anywhere between $35 and $100, as well as as any variety of vintage Hercules, Buco, Knopf jackets for next to nothing. I spent a full year and a half just buying and selling jackets (it was a rather remarkable period in life, but that's for another story). I fell out of jackets around 2000 only to come back within the last year or two. I am blown away by the repros and have acquired a number of jackets over the past year or so. Kept some, sold most, but it is no better time for A-2s, except for maybe the times my dad used to tell me about buying them for a "nickel or a dime" at the Carmichael, CA Army Navy store right after the war. I would guess his pricing is off (he's over 80 now), but still if they were selling new for less than $10, I can just imagine the price if a "graffitied" or "defaced" painted leather jacket in 1946...

What I do find it odd today is that one can buy a somewhat worn, but very solid original in a favorable size (42-46)for $600-$750, but a new repro cost in excess of $1,500. I suppose it may be that one has to search and wait for the original, when you can just put in you CC number for the repro (save JC's 2 year waiting list). Hell, there was a stellar, original Spiewak A-2 that sold on eBay recently for $1,600.

Being an MBA nerd, I question the utility of buying an essentially new 25 year old horsehide Avirex MacArthur horsehide jacket on eBay for $60 vs. a brand new Goodwear for $1,500 plus. While the comparison of the technical aspects of the jackets is not debatable, the economics of utility fly out the window--is it worth $1,500 for an exact cut, zipper, and knit?. I suppose the buyer makes the call. Then again, used Goodwears are selling for about 50% of new, which is typical for the used clothing market...

What I will say is this...as long as there is disposable income, the high end repro market will stay strong, and I love my Goodwear United Sheeplined, dull russet, semi-aniline jacket, but it was purchased third hand used for 1/3 of the cost new. The hide makes the jacket, and it has worn exactly like my original Bronco, Roughwear, Poughkeepsie, and Perry A-2s. Would I buy new? Maybe for a Goodwear Star that fits perfectly...then again I am in a way different place that I was 20 years go but I like buying them used at 1/3 to half the price of new even better.

For what its worth, I did splurge and I just ordered a Cable from Diamond Dave. Hopefully it will be my "go to" repro replacing my heavily worn Lost Worlds Dubow from 1995. At under $1,000 I can justify it as I would expect it to carry me another 20 years like the Dubow, but any more than that, one can find a very nice original for less than a new repro, it won't lose value,and it won't be too nice to wear.

Do I hear blasphemy? Maybe it is the Milk Stout I have been sipping while writing this. No better time for A-2s or microbrews.

 

[Skyhawk]

Yes indeed... Vintage leather and microbrews. We will have to get together and have a pint

Thanks for your insight. It is nice to hear your assessment and experiences over the long period you have been collecting. Welcome back to the wild world of Jackets!

I think that Spiewak you were referring to had some issues. A little rot starting up. Barely detectable but I have heard here that Spiewak goat is known for red rot issues. So maybe not so mint. Here's the thread:

http://vintageleatherjackets.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=18082&hilit=spiewak

My observations, Original A-2's are holding steady in value but deals can still be had if your lucky. G-1's it seems have gone way down in value over the past few years and M-422's in general still don't reach the value of the AAF jackets. No matter what the inflated ebay listings are telling you. Rare original and patched and painted jackets are still at the top. Edging out even the high end repros in most cases. Thank goodness there is still an appreciation for the history and uniqueness of some of these jackets.

The used repro market is flourishing. They are holding good value, but there are getting to be more around now. So a deal can be found a lot easier these days if you are looking.

 

[STEVE S.]

Can't say I miss a jacket that way but I know what ya mean. To this day I wake from time to time almost in a cold sweat over a Luger, 03 Springfield, and k98 I sold for an ex. Three very near mint examples I'll never see again. Eat sh*t Rachel :lol:

mine isn't going anywhere...



my mrs is just the opposite. she doesn't want me to sell anything. whenever i mention turning loose of something i get the "are you sure about that??" speech.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Here's the beauty I let go to keep that B***** happy

 

[foster]

Sean, we share in your sorrow. It's almost made me cry too! :cry:

 

[STEVE S.]

sweet! well, it was.... mine is also a DWM but 1915. was a vet bring back from WWII hence the WWII mag.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Almost flawless, tighter than a bull azz never fired. You can barely see the only flaw on the barrel, a 100 year old fingerprint that burned itself in. Here's the 03 from 1918 :twisted: Starting to wonder if I could find that dingdong and make her pay now. It was in the serial # range where it was OK to fire, I think just above 850,000

 

[Roughwear]

Wow! A thread about jackets becomes one about guns!

 

[John Lever]

It is really a jacket thread.
If you like just start another thread ?

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Sorry to twist panties fellas. Conversation can wander sometimes. Kinda like how Repros now dominate a vintage leather jacket forum. But that's OK, I don't mind

To get back on topic, personally I pay next to nothing for originals (vintage or new) and buy whatever comes along, cloth, nylon, and leather. And I have very little interest in repros now being in such a warm climate.

 

[Vcruiser]

Sorry to twist panties fellas. Conversation can wander sometimes. Kinda like how Repros now dominate a vintage leather jacket forum. But that's OK, I don't mind

To get back on topic, personally I pay next to nothing for originals (vintage or new) and buy whatever comes along, cloth, nylon, and leather. And I have very little interest in repros now being in such a warm climate.

Don't think there was really a point made about you not minding what you may consider a bigger wrong or what you have little interest in now...but a reminder of what the thread topic is/was. You seem to be on the attack anymore if someone attempts to disagree with you.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

If Van says so :roll:

Again, sorry to get off topic fellas for a post or two, happens all the time here one way or another. I was very active earlier in this thread dead on topic when it turned into a plumbline ball busting session.

I do enjoy the actual jacket related input most of us have to offer, repro, or original so no more gun talk. Just brought those up because I couldn't think of a jacket I missed. But now that I do. It was back on my birthday the year 2000, I pulled up to the Town Dump free swap shop and there it was. A Perry size 42 hanging over a folding chair. It was about 20 feet away but I knew it was an original. I had just started collecting military stuff and in the infancy of my
ajacketpatches business. My birthday and first year making patches, I thought this to be a gift from God. I'll never forgive myself for selling it but at the time i was in a real jam. Looking back, that jacket was priceless and can't be compared to anything else.

 

[ADC]

Using only the best exotic skins, laborious finishes, dedicated hardware, exacting craftsmanship and specifications, obsession with minutiae and low volume artisan production was always a recipe for ever increasing prices.

Isn't this the basic conundrum of the repro vs. vintage? The high-end repro has all the above features and is supposedly an exact recreation of the original, yet the original was done in the haste and lower standards of wartime production and utilized whatever materials were available, be they superb or inferior, and craftmanship, be it competent or incompetent. The originals were produced with whatever materials and method would get the jackets out to the crews ASAP. In this sense, then, is the high-end repro really a true repro? It could be argued that a mass-produced, say, U.S. Authentic, for example, would be more authentic than the high-end repro. Not pointing fingers, just giving food for thought.

It is a connundrum of sorts. The repro jacket industry mirrors the rest of the fashion industry. That includes a premium for style, brand recognition, exclusivity, quality and low volume artisan built. And as much as some would deny it, we are all in some ways fashionista's with varying degrees of snobbery as the rest of the population have. As you say, quality with originals varied and many if made for the civilian market in peacetime could not have been sold. But we all can pretend that our repro jacket is based on one made by an expert seamstress having a good day who got hold of some great hides.
If US Authentic decided to build exact contract replicas even using unremarkable hides they will still perhaps have to charge a hefty premium because of the niche market appeal. Further. niche makers also have to value add to their product to keep up with competative forces and justify high prices. It becomes a race to the top.