Rank On A2 Epaulettes

[watchmanjimg]

No need to apologize, Bill. This has been an ongoing discussion on the forum and I suppose it's as valid as any other topic. If I understood correctly, it seems the poster was commenting on the futility of worrying about whether it's OK to wear rank one has not earned on jackets one has never worn officially. In other words, if you weren't aircrew, you wouldn't have been issued the jacket. Thus, if you're worried about wearing the rank why aren't you worried about wearing the jacket in the first place? I didn't get the impression the poster was expressing an opinion about the wear of such items, but rather that it's a waste of time to debate the propriety of doing so given the fact that most of us would be ineligible anyway.

Tom, please correct me if I misunderstood.

 

[Chandler]

Come on..any of us wearing a WW2 A2 embellished with period patches or rank will never be questioned by anyone of authority...

While I agree with the overall thought that most members here wouldn't be trying anything untoward by adding rank to their FJs, I've just never felt that comfortable thinking about the option -- I mean, much as Bonnie is trying to say, what rank would I choose for myself? Sounds funny -- even sort of pretentious, doesn't it? I've never reached an officers rank in any organization -- I'd feel funny wearing a lieutenant's or captain's bars -- let alone anything else. Thus, my jackets have no insignia.

Now a squadron patch I could see wearing as a tribute of sorts. But calling myself Capt. Spaulding (the African explorer) seems just a bit pretentious. Food for thought.

Chandler

 

[watchmanjimg]

Totally agree (particularly since I was a mere enlisted man), but I guess as with every other time we've discussed this topic it boils down to personal choice and laissez-faire.

 

[Mac]

A-2s, as we know, were sold on the civilian market.

http://www.acmedepot.com/a2jacket/a2images/aero.jpg

I'd also refrain from wearing rank I hadn't earned,

Mac

 

[capt71]

Deleted

 

[auxair]

Would anyone here on this forum object strongly to a CAP Lt Col wearing the oak leaves on his WWII repro horsehide A-2?

I asked because while I am not a Lt Col, I do hold equivalent rank in the Hong Kong Air Cadet Corps (Wg Cdr), and a rank lower in the local equivalence to the Air National Guard as Adjutant..... and as my own way of saluting the AVG, CATF and 14th AF which contributed greatly to the survival of my nation during WWII, I do have the name tag strip and silver oak leaves on my Anniversary Aero 42-15142-P.

On 21 August next year, on the 65th Anniversary of the surrender of Japanese Forces in the China Threatre, my Corps will donate a replica of Gen Claire Chennault's Aero A-2 to the world's only dedicated Flying Tigers memorial cum museum in Zhijiang, Hunan Province, China. Any kind advices as to from whom I should order it - Amanda or John?

Don't get mad at me!

 

[Andrew]

On 21 August next year, on the 65th Anniversary of the surrender of Japanese Forces in the China Threatre, my Corps will donate a replica of Gen Claire Chennault's Aero A-2 to the world's only dedicated Flying Tigers memorial cum museum in Zhijiang, Hunan Province, China. Any kind advices as to from whom I should order it - Amanda or John?

Don't get mad at me!

That's a pretty cool story Aux, which one is you?

WRT your question, I would most definitely say John.

 

[capt71]

Deleted

 

[auxair]

Leadsky - thanks - I'm the chap in A-2.....third from the left

I thought about John and his Good Wear W535-ac-16160, heard a lot of praises on this and another forum but I have never dealt with him. On top of that, Aero has in stock the leather CBI shield, AAF "roundel" and blood chit and can possibly entertain my request to custom make Chennault's 14th AF leather chest patch and put on the metal Major General's stars.

Any idea as to whether John will be happy do the badges?

Also, I think no one will be wearing the jacket coz it will only be on display in museum in a glass cabinet (currently the Zhijiang Museum only has a modern Cooper G-1 with AVG patches and blood chit donated by a veteran Flying Tiger when he last visited the place - can't remember the name). I just wish to do some thing to help our Motherland pay a better tribute to our American allies who helped us during the War.

It should be good PR for either Goodwear or Aero too, and someone is paying for it.

If ordered from Amanda, I guess it will be the Aero 40-3785-P in jerky russet HH. My Aero was from Mark, and I waited 6 months for it and my Pre-war Irvin (ordered in early Oct 08, received them in Mar 09). So I think I will order the jacket direct from Scotland.

 

[Chandler]

Would anyone here on this forum object strongly to a CAP Lt Col wearing the oak leaves on his WWII repro horsehide A-2?

I asked because while I am not a Lt Col, I do hold equivalent rank in the Hong Kong Air Cadet Corps (Wg Cdr), and a rank lower in the local equivalence to the Air National Guard as Adjutant.....

Would you not catch flack from your ANG commanders if you already have an official rank? Just a thought.

Chandler

 

[auxair]

Capt71 - thanks - I am the lad without the "topcover". The young ladies are
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_Kexin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Yilin
...(no politics here!)

My colleagues and I were members of the project team organizing the Flag Raising Ceremony honouring their visit to Hong Kong after the Olympics, so we had breakfast together. The equerry/aide sort of duty.

No problem wearing our RAF style uniform along with our British style drill and salute even when we visit PLA bases and have our annual Beijing Camp in the National Aviaiton Musuem run by the PLAAF. The Mainland is even modelling their Beijing Air Cadet Corps after Hong Kong and sought official advices from us. After all, Hong Kong is meant to be an international city and our close ties with the RAF and UK ACO are well respected by the Government. We even have Queen's Colour Squadron SNCOs coming over every other year to serve as advisers on ceremonial and drill of our air cadets, and RAF "trappers" and USAF PJs were in town working with our Government Flying Service.

So there is no problem wearing a vintage WWII style jacket.

 

[Chandler]

The young ladies are
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_Kexin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Yilin
...(no politics here!)

No politics at all when it comes to the Olympics -- that's pretty cool.

Chandler

 

[CBI]

Chennault wore an Aero 16160. No question - go with Goodwear. Considering what the jacket is for, I would not consider any other maker as Goodwear is going to be the most authentic by a long shot (especially now, with the new horsehide). Patches, etc. can be obtained pretty easily. I don't remember what all Channault has on his jacket but original blood chits, CBI shoulder shield patches and AAF shoulder patches - originals, not repros are readily available on eBay. Within the last year I sold my original blood chits and a 14th AF breast patch just like Chennault wore.

So - go with Goodwear for sure and get as many original patches as you can. BTW, the original patches (chit/CBI/AAF) are not that much more expensive than repros are and they are REAL.

 

[auxair]

It is not actually the Air National Guard as I am just drawing an analogy.. it is what we in Hong Kong call the Government Flying Service Auxiliary Section, a direct decendant of the old Royal Hong Kong Auxiliary Air Force. Because of the change of sovereignty, we cannot remain as "Air Force" (PLAAF is our AF) and certainly not "Royal" so the GFS was established to provide flying service (internal security, SAR, CASEVAC, tactical law enforcement, VIP, aerial survey, firefighting), and because of our experience (mid-ranking heli pilots in mid 30's already logging 5,000 to 6,000 hours) and our ongoing association with the RAF SAR Force, USCG air units and USAF CSAR Units, the GFS is tasked to provide SAR cover for almost the entirely South China under ICAO and IMO agreements. The GFS Auxiliary Section or GFS(A) is our equivalence to the US ANG or UK Royal Auxiliary Air Force. The GFS is a mentor to the Hong Kong Air Cadet Corps, and many members wear two hats including the very top brass (e.g. the first CO of the GFS(A) was the Commandant/Air Commodore of HKACC, so was the immediate past Controller (i.e. Head) of the GFS). The two units are so intimately close to each other so there is no flack to catch at all... I am not familar with cirumstances in the States, would holding two ranks and two commissions cause problems to people serving in both US CAP and ANG?

 

[capt71]

Deleted

 

[auxair]

Thanks, Bill- well understood. The CAP National Commander Maj Gen Courtier was actually in Hong Kong last October for the International Air Cadet Exchange Association (IACEA) Conference (it will be in Seattle in 2010). I even took the National Executive Director to have some business suits made, and asked him for the "permission" to "adopt" the regulation CAP black goatskin Cooper A-2 jacket for possible HKACC use (not pursued yet). My CO is working on the possibility of securing a CAP National Staff College slot for me in 2010. The GFS operates Super Puma L2s, EC155B2s Dauphines and Jetstream J-41s (EC225s and Gulfstreams in the pipeline), so while we are small, equipment wise we are at a par with the RAF SAR Force, and due to an agreement with UN (ICAO and IMO) we go beyond our boundary to provide SAR cover of most of the South China Sea (not not PLAAF or PLAN, not Philippines or Vietnam). A contingent of Alaskan ANG was on attachment for almost a month last December, and we have quite a lot to learn from each other - GFS is slightly stronger at mountain rescue and maritime SAR if only we do them too often

http://www.gfs.gov.hk/eng/perform.htm

and the Alaskan ANG is of course lightyears ahead when it comes to CSAR.

http://www.gfs.gov.hk/Document/graphics ... rForce.jpg

Anyway, let's return to flight jackets, I have an Eastman RW 27752 too. Compared to my Aero Anniversary, it's much more supple but the standard sizes of ELC, in my opinion, cannot match the full custom made jackets of Aero Leather. For the Eastman, I just leave it plain without patches, nametag or rank insignia.

I've also like to take this opportunity to express my view on Aviation Leathercraft - in spite of the not so favourable opinions found on this forum, they are, after all, the official supplier of the current RAF Blue-grey leather Flying Jacket (No 14C Dress, if memory serves), I happen to have one when it was still available for public sales back in 1995, complete with the very unique metal/pewter clip on name tag

 

[Anonymous]

Chennault wore an Aero 16160. No question - go with Goodwear. Considering what the jacket is for, I would not consider any other maker as Goodwear is going to be the most authentic by a long shot (especially now, with the new horsehide). Patches, etc. can be obtained pretty easily. I don't remember what all Channault has on his jacket but original blood chits, CBI shoulder shield patches and AAF shoulder patches - originals, not repros are readily available on eBay. Within the last year I sold my original blood chits and a 14th AF breast patch just like Chennault wore.

So - go with Goodwear for sure and get as many original patches as you can. BTW, the original patches (chit/CBI/AAF) are not that much more expensive than repros are and they are REAL.

That's an interesting question. We all seem to agree that putting repro' patches on an original jacket would be a travesty (do we agree ?), so wouldn't using original patches on a repro be just as bad ?

You're saying that original patches are readily available ............. did they really make THAT many patches ? One would assume that the amount of any given patch made during WW2 would be relatively much fewer than the jackets. And how can anyone tell if an 'original' patch really is ?

I'll let the remarks about Good Wear slide by - just this once !! :twisted:

J_H

 

[Chandler]

I have an original CBI bullion patch in my collection, inherited from an uncle -- it's not goin' on anything I'd wear!

Chandler

 

[CBI]

the idea here is that a member is wanting a jacket reptroduction for the AVG museum. If the museum needs to go with a repro jacket for whatever reason, the original patches make sense as original shoulder patches and chits are not that expensive. Goodwear is going to be the most authentic copy however its true that a beat up original might cost about the same as a premium GW.

Whatever .......................................... :?:

 

[Chandler]

the idea here is that a member is wanting a jacket reptroduction for the AVG museum.

I missed that side of it, but since the majority of the AVG wore M-422as -- is an A-2 a good representation in a museum? Repro or otherwise?

Chandler