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Quick anatomy of a Luftwaffe or cyclists jacket.
- Thread starter JDAM
- Start date
Very true and oh so sad, though there are very many jackets of this type with rock solid provenance and sourced directly from Luftwaffe pilots. Given the volumes of rubbish sold on online sales sites, it has now become de riguer and mind-numbing protocol for all of them to be rubbished by experten.
I agree. There are ones out there with rock solid provenance and unscrupulous Ebay sellers have sadly made people very suspicious of every so called "Luftwaffe" jacket. There is for example one guy from Germany, who has been discussed on the forum several times, who it is believed doctors ordinary bike jackets and sells them as genuine Luftwaffe-worn garments on Ebay.
Peter Graham
Well-Known Member
JDAM, that's a beautiful jacket. Is it yours and do you know the story behind it ?
Peter Graham said:
Only a limited and unverifiable story. As with most of these jackets, it was allegedly purchased directly from a vet. Who knows for sure. It is a fact that many, many Luftwaffe pilots purchased them. The volume of photographic evidence proves this. They are not as common as A-2 or other allied jackets, but I do believe that more than skeptics would like to believe are legitimate. There is a lot of nonsense talked about claiming legitimacy can only be established by wear patterns on these jackets i.e. on the upper shoulders and back, where a vest might have allegedly caused wear. I find these arguments subjective, self-serving and ultimately hypocritical - there is either solid provenance or not, simple. Wear could have easily been caused by a sack of onions over someones shoulder. And some pilots never wore these jackets in an aircraft - often worn as stylish non-operational gear, employed to impress French ladies rather than keep flyers warm.
Hamsterbear
Member
And some pilots never wore these jackets in an aircraft - often worn as stylish non-operational gear, employed to impress French ladies rather than keep flyers warm.
That could certainly be true. I have a friend who flew 35 missions over Germany as a B-24 pilot, and he has told me he never wore his A-2 while flying- it was too cold at 25K feet for a summer leather jacket. They wore the wool uniform, the heated flying suits and the sheepskins on top, then the flack gear, all strapped in the plane. The A-2 was worn around base as part of the "working" uniform, but not off base- that required the Class A "pinks and greens". He said if you wore anything other than the Class A off base the MP's would write you up.
That could certainly be true. I have a friend who flew 35 missions over Germany as a B-24 pilot, and he has told me he never wore his A-2 while flying- it was too cold at 25K feet for a summer leather jacket. They wore the wool uniform, the heated flying suits and the sheepskins on top, then the flack gear, all strapped in the plane. The A-2 was worn around base as part of the "working" uniform, but not off base- that required the Class A "pinks and greens". He said if you wore anything other than the Class A off base the MP's would write you up.
FtrPlt
Active Member
JDAM said:Only a limited and unverifiable story. As with most of these jackets, it was allegedly purchased directly from a vet. Who knows for sure. It is a fact that many, many Luftwaffe pilots purchased them. The volume of photographic evidence proves this. They are not as common as A-2 or other allied jackets, but I do believe that more than skeptics would like to believe are legitimate. There is a lot of nonsense talked about claiming legitimacy can only be established by wear patterns on these jackets i.e. on the upper shoulders and back, where a vest might have allegedly caused wear. I find these arguments subjective, self-serving and ultimately hypocritical - there is either solid provenance or not, simple. Wear could have easily been caused by a sack of onions over someones shoulder. And some pilots never wore these jackets in an aircraft - often worn as stylish non-operational gear, employed to impress French ladies rather than keep flyers warm.
Gents,
While I would agree that wear patterns are of questionable value, the passage of time; clothing shortages of the late 1940s/50s; passing on of Luftwaffe vets; etc; all contribute to reducing the numbers of jackets that survived. How many that survived the war remained intact with all their badging? How many were denazified by their owners? How many children of vets simply discarded these jackets upon the passing of their relatives?
The very nature of these jackets leaves them questionable, with regards to provenance, unless a direct vet acquisition and even this route is potentially questionable considering the values. Short of a photo of the vet wearing the exact jacket in a wartime photo, there always exists a level of uncertaintly.
Just to use the French cycling jacket illustrated in this thread as an example. How many of you noticed the zippers on the jacket in the modern photo operate opposite to those in the period photo (zip away from center to close in the modern photo)? Urban legend says the zippers were reversed in the 1950s. If true, you would have the exact same jacket, unchanged in pattern or materials, but produced after the war. Add Luftwaffe badging and, presto, another Luftwaffe jacket.
Is the above legend true? I have no idea. One would need to research the jacket maker to see if there is any basis to it. From the very small sampling shown in the period photo, 100% of the 5 jackets seen close with zippers towards the center.
FtrPlt said:
Excellent input, though I do wonder why a manufacturer would decide to reverse the zippers? Is that seen on a whole range of 50's clothing? Was there some odd shift in zipper placement thinking that took place in the 40's 50's and caught on like wildfire? Anyway, thanks for that information, good stuff!!
FtrPlt
Active Member
JDAM,
This could be as simple as one factory working simply applying them one way while a co-worked put them on the opposite. I doubt there was a massive re-think over zipper orientation
it does illustrate some of the interesting theories that linger in the militaria world.
To muddy the waters further, have a look at this jacket:
About 4 years ago, I watched this jacket re-appear on eBay every few months over a period of about a year. Each time, it had additional 'bling' added to it to increase its attractiveness as a Luftwaffe jacket.
The first time I saw it, it was simply listed as a vintage French jacket. It sold and several months later it re-appeared with shoulder boards added and was sold again. Another few months pass and the jacket reappears with a breast eagle and, yet again, is sold. Finally, it turns up about 6 months later with a bullion pilot badge added and is sold yet again.
The jacket itself is vintage -- exact age unknown but note the zipper orientation is 'correct'. IMO, the jacket is then ruined by the addition of original and fake Luftwaffe badging. Note the relative good condition of the badging in comparison to the well-worn state of the jacket itself. The selling point was made that the badging was held on by press-stud fasteners and were kept in a box while the jacket saw substantial postwar use.
Little tidbit of info:
note the main zipper on this jacket starts at the bottom hem of the jacket while those of JDAMs jacket and those in the wartime photo have zippers that start above the buckle. Another theoretical indicator of postwar manufacture?
This could be as simple as one factory working simply applying them one way while a co-worked put them on the opposite. I doubt there was a massive re-think over zipper orientation
it does illustrate some of the interesting theories that linger in the militaria world.To muddy the waters further, have a look at this jacket:
About 4 years ago, I watched this jacket re-appear on eBay every few months over a period of about a year. Each time, it had additional 'bling' added to it to increase its attractiveness as a Luftwaffe jacket.
The first time I saw it, it was simply listed as a vintage French jacket. It sold and several months later it re-appeared with shoulder boards added and was sold again. Another few months pass and the jacket reappears with a breast eagle and, yet again, is sold. Finally, it turns up about 6 months later with a bullion pilot badge added and is sold yet again.
The jacket itself is vintage -- exact age unknown but note the zipper orientation is 'correct'. IMO, the jacket is then ruined by the addition of original and fake Luftwaffe badging. Note the relative good condition of the badging in comparison to the well-worn state of the jacket itself. The selling point was made that the badging was held on by press-stud fasteners and were kept in a box while the jacket saw substantial postwar use.
Little tidbit of info:
note the main zipper on this jacket starts at the bottom hem of the jacket while those of JDAMs jacket and those in the wartime photo have zippers that start above the buckle. Another theoretical indicator of postwar manufacture?
John Lever
Moderator
Shame to have spoiled what was a nice simple jacket.
John Lever
Moderator
This is of interest -
http://cgi.ebay.de/WWII-Luftwaffe-Pilot ... 4cf4ad93e2
http://cgi.ebay.de/WWII-Luftwaffe-Pilot ... 4cf4ad93e2
Andrew
Well-Known Member
Here's the same type but with bling in the collection of the AWM.
http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/REL/18105.001?image=5
http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/REL/18105.001?image=5
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