Price increase at Eastman Leather

[Micawber]

^^^And will his products start to incur import duties as a result of the UK leaving the EU? [I loathe the term BREXIT].

 

[Pilot]

Brice, I've seen two different (almost opposite actually) thoughts in your comment above. Investing and wearing are different things.
So, invest into originals - well, yes. May be you're right. But wearing originals - doesn't sound like a good idea,
considering 1) its significant value, 2) not great durability because of its age, 3) its exreme rarity.
That's why if we're talking of real everyday wearing - we're talking about top quality repros. GW, Eastman, BK/Platon, etc.
That's the point.

Thx for that, sorry if my point was misunderstood.
Wearing a jacket...Go for a repro...low end or high end...depending on the weares values and budget ...but dont expect a gain if sooner or later you put it back on the market.. My Little experience...I lost only....and I only have/had high end repros for sale...(high end...my problem...some may comment)
Originals... one can maybe wear them..if solid and sound...and if one wants to do so ... But surely an original will be an investment and no loss if at a later stage the original is back on the market. My 0.1 cent experience...
PE. I lost approx 4000 Euro on repros within 2 years... But this loss did not or will never be with originals in the same period of time based on a similar investment... Do wearing it or not ( BTW I wear all my originals occasionally if the size permits it).

Maybe clearer now...I hope...

 

[Pilot]

^^^And will his products start to incur import duties as a result of the UK leaving the EU? [I loathe the term BREXIT].

...not only his...but whatever is non UK based "might".......But also ( bad luck) two UK based Co´s may experience tax and export dificulties to "Little EU" as well...which is no good as well.
I sincerely wish a good fair positive Outcome to all this...for all involved...

 

[taikonaut]

No and I think we have very different criteria that I’m not explaining well.

For me the vintage is in the look and recreation of the item and atmosphere and time. It is not about having something 80 years old because it’s 80 years old. Sure I have items of that age, but a jacket will likely bear the scars of that 80 years, and when you want to recreate the past authenticity is not in premature ageing as would be the case if it were possible to take an original from 2019 back to 1941. Not many originals from today would look and be as they are now back then.

It’s a different perspective, but no wrong because it’s different.

For me its like fine vintage wine. We often come across bottled wines in the supermarket that suppose to be a tribute to old vintages but are made recently. They maybe worse or maybe even better than what they are copying but here more value is place on being original. A true vintage. I also think repro makers still comes up short. The hide is too correct and it simply does not drape like a WW2 original. They are still nice jacket in their own right but they are not the same.

 

[stanier]

I think ultimately we’re going to have to agree to disagree.

The analogy to wine is a good one. It is quite possible to have a very vintage wine when the weather in particular wasn’t right in a particular year and a wine expert would say that’s a poor example of that wine variety, but other more recent years that may carry a higher price because the quality of the wine is much better because the conditions for production were just much better in that particular year.

The same with jackets. An original A-2 with battered lining, knits, missing or frayed label, dodgy zipper and overly worn leather just isn’t an example of the type that I would want and certainly my preference would be for a GW, ELC or Aero etc at their best. I don’t for the life of me see how an original, if the requirement is for a daily wearer that will see you thick and thin could compete, unless it was a minty example, that I have seen, but rightly, back to the wine analogy, would costaplenty and I wouldn’t want to wear everyday.

I’m not convinced an original jacket in that poor state can be interpreted as draping the same as when it was new.

Personally, and ultimately, this is down to personal choice, but I firmly believe that a repro from a good maker on a good day can create very well a jacket on a par with an original. An original, brand new out of stores I mean not one that’s been in action even for a couple of weeks, or more like months and years and then stored for decades in a collection at best or back of a dusty and fusty wardrobe at worst.

Don’t get me wrong, if I could find a minty original, or even one with a sound leather shell that had aged well with solid stitching that had been fitted with new knits, new lining and label and good zip then I might well be interested but by then it would be expensive, be more difficult to find than ordering a repro and would it be original, repro or origipro?

 

[taikonaut]

Had to disagree. Well preserved examples of original A2s drapes differently then ones from repro makers. I stand by that. Also feels differently. Have you had experience with originals well preserved and not so well ones?

 

[Southoftheborder]

The reason so many repros from top line makers don't always drape properly is because they tend to make them in vegetable tanned hide which is almost always a bit stiffer. But they want the jackets to break in quickly and show wear like a well preserved eighty years old original; and vegetable tanned leather shows wear a lot quicker usually than the chrome tanned hide that originals were made in.

But wartime jackets were a uniform item and so intended to stay looking good. They didn't want men looking like bikers with well worn scuffed jackets - and when they did start to look too worn they were dyed dark seal brown to hide it.

The other factor is that people increasingly want expensive jackets made in luxurious expensive hides, and vegetable tanned leather can be quite beautiful to look at. In recent years there has been a vogue for expensive vegetable tanned leather starting with furnishing leather and then migrating to clothing. So top price repro makers probably feel they have to give the customers what they want when they are paying so much.

But the down side of that is that those jackets don't drape and have the same hand as wartime ones. If you want that in a repro you should go with a chrome tanned leather. It will drape in a similar way when its broken in and softened. Though it's impossible to replicate old tanning techniques with modern heath and safety standards - in the west anyway. So it's doubtful if an exact reproduction of old leather clothing can even be done.

 

[MikeyB-17]

Provenance or not, I am not prepared to wear an 80 year old jacket the same way I would wear a repro. If it’s in good condition, lack of provenance is no reason to wear it to destruction. It managed to survive all that time, I’m not going to be the one to destroy it. It deserves respect, whether it was worn by Jimmy Stewart or not. That’s the way I look at it anyway.

 

[Smithy]

The reason so many repros from top line makers don't always drape properly is because they tend to make them in vegetable tanned hide which is almost always a bit stiffer. But they want the jackets to break in quickly and show wear like a well preserved eighty years old original; and vegetable tanned leather shows wear a lot quicker usually than the chrome tanned hide that originals were made in.

But wartime jackets were a uniform item and so intended to stay looking good. They didn't want men looking like bikers with well worn scuffed jackets - and when they did start to look too worn they were dyed dark seal brown to hide it.

The other factor is that people increasingly want expensive jackets made in luxurious expensive hides, and vegetable tanned leather can be quite beautiful to look at. In recent years there has been a vogue for expensive vegetable tanned leather starting with furnishing leather and then migrating to clothing. So top price repro makers probably feel they have to give the customers what they want when they are paying so much.

But the down side of that is that those jackets don't drape and have the same hand as wartime ones. If you want that in a repro you should go with a chrome tanned leather. It will drape in a similar way when its broken in and softened. Though it's impossible to replicate old tanning techniques with modern heath and safety standards - in the west anyway. So it's doubtful if an exact reproduction of old leather clothing can even be done.

Spot on.

I've said it before on here. Even the very best GW is still an homage (and a very nice one at that) to an original A-2, it is not a 100% replica/clone of an original manufactured for example in 1942. It is made to far better and exacting standards than a wartime example and in leather which is not the same as that on an original. All the high end repros are very beautiful, well made jackets but they are not 100% copies of the jackets they aim to replicate.

It's quite simple if you want a jacket which is EXACTLY the same as a wartime one, buy an original.

Saying that, I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing an original and that's because I am an utter bastard to my jackets. I wear them in sun, rain, hail, sleet and snow and I will quite happily do manual labour in them. I personally wouldn't want to subject an original WWII artefact to that kind of punishment so I choose to wear repros.

 

[Southoftheborder]

Provenance or not, I am not prepared to wear an 80 year old jacket the same way I would wear a repro. If it’s in good condition, lack of provenance is no reason to wear it to destruction. It managed to survive all that time, I’m not going to be the one to destroy it. It deserves respect, whether it was worn by Jimmy Stewart or not. That’s the way I look at it anyway.

Yes, that's the way I look at it too. You sometimes see fifty and sixty years old time capsule good quality cars which have been kept almost all their lives in a garage and hardly driven and are still as new. If you bought one you could do what you wanted with it and thrash it to death if you liked. After all you bought it. But it would be a shame to be the to one spoil it after it had survived unspoiled that long. Drive it by all means, but carefully.

 

[Lebowski]

Provenance or not, I am not prepared to wear an 80 year old jacket the same way I would wear a repro. If it’s in good condition, lack of provenance is no reason to wear it to destruction. It managed to survive all that time, I’m not going to be the one to destroy it. It deserves respect, whether it was worn by Jimmy Stewart or not. That’s the way I look at it anyway.

Very well said, Mikey. Indeed.

 

[tjoenn]

I have two originals, an A-2 and a G-1 from 1950's. The G-1 I wear like any other jacket, but I check the weather forecast before wearing my A-2... I don't want it to get wet. Most of the time, it's displayed in my little "museum". Love the fact that it's a wearer though.

 

[johnwayne]

Really interesting topic this. I've 3 A2's - a very early ELC house, a GW Doniger and an original Dubow. I've also 2 original Cagleco G1's. I rarely wear the ELC or the Dubow simply because the GW as I've said here numerous times is such a great fitting, comfortable and in my view handsome jacket that looks good with whatever I wear. The Dubow I get such a buzz from simply because I know what it is and for that reason only wear it occasionally and the ELC has simply taken a back seat as I don't look on it in the same way! The G1's are pretty much identical but one is marginally better so gets my choice most times (so prob will offload one soon) but add to that all my other jackets, tanker, B10, MA1, A1, M41 etc etc I'm luckily spoilt for choice!! Moral of all that is that I love period military jackets, the A2 starting the bug to the point I really always wanted an original I could wear as it seemed pointless to have one to shut away in a collection, the fact it's an investment maybe, was never forefront in my reasoning to buy but simply now a bonus to my kids, one day!!

 

[taikonaut]

The reason so many repros from top line makers don't always drape properly is because they tend to make them in vegetable tanned hide which is almost always a bit stiffer. But they want the jackets to break in quickly and show wear like a well preserved eighty years old original; and vegetable tanned leather shows wear a lot quicker usually than the chrome tanned hide that originals were made in.

But wartime jackets were a uniform item and so intended to stay looking good. They didn't want men looking like bikers with well worn scuffed jackets - and when they did start to look too worn they were dyed dark seal brown to hide it.

The other factor is that people increasingly want expensive jackets made in luxurious expensive hides, and vegetable tanned leather can be quite beautiful to look at. In recent years there has been a vogue for expensive vegetable tanned leather starting with furnishing leather and then migrating to clothing. So top price repro makers probably feel they have to give the customers what they want when they are paying so much.

But the down side of that is that those jackets don't drape and have the same hand as wartime ones. If you want that in a repro you should go with a chrome tanned leather. It will drape in a similar way when its broken in and softened. Though it's impossible to replicate old tanning techniques with modern heath and safety standards - in the west anyway. So it's doubtful if an exact reproduction of old leather clothing can even be done.

I agree about modern repros tanning metheod madethe jacket feels stiff and affected the way it drapes. However aged repros does not completely address the drapes like WW2 jacket does or how it feels but it does gives an appearance part way. A2s were re-dyed not always because to hide the wear, new jackets were re-dyed too done for comformity in later war.

 

[taikonaut]

Provenance or not, I am not prepared to wear an 80 year old jacket the same way I would wear a repro. If it’s in good condition, lack of provenance is no reason to wear it to destruction. It managed to survive all that time, I’m not going to be the one to destroy it. It deserves respect, whether it was worn by Jimmy Stewart or not. That’s the way I look at it anyway.

Is it because it is associated with the war or is it because it is simply being 80 years old?

 

[MikeyB-17]

Both. Jackets of that age that have survived in wearable condition are not exactly common, and I would prefer not to contribute to their deterioration. The fact that it’s a military jacket from a historic conflict only makes preserving it more important to me. Doesn’t matter that you don’t know whose it was, or what its history was, it has history nonetheless and deserves to be treated better than I would treat a repro.

 

[taikonaut]

The problem with guesswork on a WW2 era jacket without provenance is for all we know it may never saw combat and probably came out of a army surplus store sold to a teenage biker in the 50s who likes to add his own patches.
There was a video of the 91year old vet with his A2, he said that he wrote/stenciled his name on the liner because if he doesn't do that someone will like the jacket more than you do.

 

[Micawber]

This seems to have drifted off topic somewhat. My take on the latter aspects of the discussion is that generally speaking old stuff deserves more careful and respectful handling the older it gets. But having been involved in the restoration and museum field I would say that.

 

[B-Man2]

Both. Jackets of that age that have survived in wearable condition are not exactly common, and I would prefer not to contribute to their deterioration. The fact that it’s a military jacket from a historic conflict only makes preserving it more important to me. Doesn’t matter that you don’t know whose it was, or what its history was, it has history nonetheless and deserves to be treated better than I would treat a repro.

I’m in complete agreement . I’m not criticizing those who choose to wear their originals, to each his own. I simply view original jackets as artifacts that need to be preserved. I do the same with other WWII items I collect. My personnel feelings are why wear originals when a repro will serve the purpose . Once again my view and I don’t criticize those who disagree or chose to wear original jackets.

 

[MikeyB-17]

It doesn’t bother me whether it saw combat or spent 80 years in a box. It’s a WWII jacket in relatively rare, wearable condition. I think it deserves to be treated better than a repro, which I have been known to treat very badly. I don’t believe just because it has no provenance, it can be worn continuously, chucked on the floor or in the boot of the car, scraped against walls or used to do the gardening or change your oil.
Anyway, as I already said, it ain’t going to happen, I won’t be spending the money a jacket like that is likely to cost any time soon.