NEW GW DUBOW 27798

[watchmanjimg]

Why bother focusing on this?

No intention to 'focus'. Sorry it's annoyed you so much - thought it might have been of interest, it's as simple as that.

It didn't annoy me at all, and I'm sorry if that's how it came across to you. My initial post to this thread was meant to assist Alan (or whoever else may have been interested) in selecting a better-fitting Goodwear A-2, based on my personal observations. My most recent post was along similar lines. Your information is indeed of interest, but the fact that the average WW2 aviator had a 36-inch chest won't help most of us in selecting the right jacket for our given build. That was the reason for my comments, and again I was only trying to help so please don't take offense.

 

[Jaguar46]

Thanks to all for their comments. It has given me a lot to ponder. As to the dimensions of the average WW 2 aviator, I am having trouble picturing what it would look like to be 5'9", weight 154 lbs and have a chest only 36 inches and a size 30 waist. The extra weight would have to go somewhere, presumably not the head or limbs.

This was about my size in collage. This is about right, for a young man with average muscle mass in the hips and legs. I wore a 37 or 38 jacket. And a 30 or 31 pants size. I am 5'8". (Now 162, waist 34, muscle is now in my "table muscles".

 

[rich]

please don't take offense.

Of course not Jim. Wouldn't mind the 30" waist though.....

 

[grommet]

Well, that's about what I was in college too, but I only weighted about 140 lbs. The extra 14 lbs has to go someplace. Of course, this study was commissioned by the War Department, so vigorous data collection and analysis may have been lacking. Also, if there were some outliers it might have skewed the data. This probably wasn't the case since most of the guys in the photos I have seen were pretty skinny.

 

[unclegrumpy]

They studied 1,871 young men in the AAF to determine the average height, weight, dimensions, and physical characteristics of flyers and made their findings available to clothing, equipment, and aircraft designers and manufacturers. The typical American flyer in 1942 had the following measurements

One other thing to consider here is that subjects of this study were already in the AAF. That means they had already gone through a selection process....one that was predisposed to select men a certain size....one that would fit reasonably well into an airplane.

I remember reading that it took Jimmy Stewart, who was both too tall and too thin, several tries and some fatting up to get in the AAF. Somehow, I don't think the really short, the chubby, or the too big and tall got those extra chances.

 

[derleicaman]

I for one would like to see some type of summary as to how certain contracts are supposed to fit, or which makers/contracts fit which body types better.

I have been in pursuit of the "perfect" A-2 for decades. Starting with the dreaded Avirex pretenders in the 80's, through Gibson and Barnes, Flight Suits, Aero, Lost Worlds, RMNZ, and several ELC's. I currently have an ELC RW 1401-P and Luftwaffe jacket and three Good Wear A-2's from different contracts. I'm still not there yet in acchieving perfection, and probably never will be!

All of the top tier jackets I have owned are all fine examples of the art. Well made, nice leathers, interesting details, etc. Some makers pay more (better) attention to details than others. Some leather choices are more interesting than others.

It's not my point to open up the old can of worms on accuracy and who is better, but here are some observations I have made on this quest.

I found an old thread while doing some research on VLJ that stated that ELC only had two basic body shells, to which they would add different pockets, pocket flaps and collars to make up a particular contract. Several of the thread participants claimed direct confirmation of this by various folks at ELC. I'm not sure this is true, but all of my ELC's seem to have more commonality between the various contracts as far as fit in the torso and shoulders compared to other makers. Their hides also seem to be more similar or the same from contract to contract.

Aero seems to have some interesting ideas of how to proportion their jackets. I could never get mine to fit me, despite several hot water treatments. My RMNZ is an older example of their take on the A-2 and is certainly not a real accurate rendering of a Dubow, but it does have enough of the unique Dubow traits that I believe it was based on the Dubow contract. In all fairness the seller on ebay stated that it had been re-labelled at some point. It does have the RMNZ pocket tag, so I don't think it is a fake. It fits like a 46, even though it is tagged 44. I only paid $325 for it, so I can live with that, and count it as another learning experience. RMNZ's website is not very good or helpful in making a purchase decision and is very limited in their offerings and options, which is a little surprising considering their high prices.

John Chapman has taken a slightly different approach in that he bases his jackets on actual jackets he has taken apart to make his patterns. All three of my Good Wears have very different fits to them, although none of them have been specifically made for me. This reinforces the claim that the patterns are based on actual period jacket patterns. The descriptions John has on his site about the characteristic fit of each contract are certainly helpful in this regard. John is also very helpful when you talk to him or email, but I hate to bug him to expound on the variations of all the myriad contracts he offers. John will also tailor a contract to suit your body type and dimensions better, unlike ELC which will only adjust the length. You can also select the hide, thread color, zip, etc. when your jacket is made which is another service no one else offers. As John is the only one making his jackets, there is the price to be paid in a very long wait time, which has resulted in the current freeze on new orders.

Anyway, my thought is that it would be nice to compile a sticky with a data base for fit, design characteristics, etc. based on the tremendous experience and knowlege base of the forum members. This would be a tremendous resource for newbies and for anyone trying to decide which contract or maker to go for.

 

[deeb7]

My RMNZ is an older example of their take on the A-2 and is certainly not a real accurate rendering of a Dubow, but it does have enough of the unique Dubow traits that I believe it was based on the Dubow contract. In all fairness the seller on ebay stated that it had been re-labelled at some point. It does have the RMNZ pocket tag, so I don't think it is a fake. It fits like a 46, even though it is tagged 44. I only paid $325 for it, so I can live with that, and count it as another learning experience. RMNZ's website is not very good or helpful in making a purchase decision and is very limited in their offerings and options, which is a little surprising considering their high prices.

I don't know what jacket you have, but my RMNZ Dubows are certainly Dubowlike, perhaps it's an older McCoy Sportswear A-2.

The RMNZ website remains frozen in time, since their focus on their The Few label for the Japanese market. They leave the site up, but the current range can be found here ...

http://www.thefewmfg.com/data_list.cgi? ... ET_2010_11

or ... http://www.c-king.jp/fewhome/fewhome.html

 

[Andrew]

If it helps, here's my 2006 sz 48 RMNZ Dubow for comparison. Has all the same Dubow characteristics, although I did add a bit to the sleeve length. The leather finish isn't remarkable but it's smell certainly is- the most luxurious leather smell of any jacket i've owned. I so love this jacket and can't bring myself to part with it but I do prefer my GW for accuracy.

 

[derleicaman]

Thanks Andrew, that does help. I was considering posting up some pictures on a new thread of this jacket to get everyone's take on it. It has a pigment finish and most of the correct Dubow characteristics and the RMNZ pocket tag. I may do some comparison shots with my GW Dubow with it.

If it helps, here's my 2006 sz 48 RMNZ Dubow for comparison. Has all the same Dubow characteristics, although I did add a bit to the sleeve length. The leather finish isn't remarkable but it's smell certainly is- the most luxurious leather smell of any jacket i've owned. I so love this jacket and can't bring myself to part with it but I do prefer my GW for accuracy.

 

[derleicaman]

Here's some pictures of this bad boy. I will take some more detailed ones and start another thread with them. In the meantime, maybe these will help.

 

[derleicaman]

Here's my Good Wear Dubow in goat, Sz 46, for comparison

 

[deeb7]

Thanks for the pictures ... I'm looking, and the RM jacket appears to be a nicer fit across the shoulders.

When you say it's certainly not a real accurate rendering of a Dubow, which are the areas that concern you, and how is the jacket labelled?

 

[derleicaman]

Hi David,

I think the most noticable thing is the epaulets appear to be too thin, tapering from 1 1/2" to 1 1/4" with a length of 6 1/2" overall. Most photos I have seen of the Dubow 27798 show a wider epaulet. The GW 27798 I have has an epaulet tapering from 2" to 1 3/4" with an overall length of 7 1/8". The pockets also seem to be placed a little wide. The spacing is 5" from the edge of the wind flap on the left side and 4 1/2" from the seam edge on the right side. The GW measures 3 3/4" and 4 1/2" respectively. The pockets on the RMNZ measure 6" w x 6 1/2" h, with the GW at 6" x 7". The label on the RMNZ looks a little "different" from other Dubow labels I have seen in photos and is sewn in with black thread. The size is marked as a 44, even though the jacket is sized more like a 46. The size is knit into the label which is correct. The seller on ebay had written in his description that he had the jacket re-labelled to a 44 from a 46 as he felt this sizing was more correct. Odd in that it does not feel like a 44 to me. It's dimensions are more consistent with a 46. There is also evidence of something measuring 8" x 10" being stitched into upper back of the lining at one point in time. The jacket has the RMNZ label in the left pocket and a nice NOS Crown chevron zip. I'll take some closer comparison photos of the two jackets and make up a seperate post soon.

 

[deeb7]

Thanks ... the epaulets do seem thin, my jackets are size 42, and the epaulets taper from 1 3/4" to a little over 1 1/2". The pockets are 3 3/4", and 4 1/2", so there they are the same as the Good Wear.

The RMNZ Dubow label is usually considered to be an accurate copy, mine are stitched with a thread colour matching the lining. As well as the black REAL McCOY'S label in the pocket, they have a white MADE IN NEW ZEALAND tag in the lining seam.

Comparison photos will be interesting ...

 

[johnwayne]

Hey Andrew
for my two pennyworth that looks well nice - I particulalry like the colour and the knits - not so sure about the sheen (resembles some of Aeroleathers civi jackets) but nevertheless, having bought an original Dubow from you, if you're unhappy with it when you get it and you think it might fit me then give me shout!!!


Cheers
Wayne

 

[Grant]

Here's a posted before of my GW Dubow.

 

[CR141]

Recently John Chapman took apart a Dubow 27798 which was in rough condition. He used it to make two test jackets and told me

There are some subtle differences with my previous Dubow pattern, and this new one looks air-tight in relation to the original.

Originally back in July I odered a russet Dubow from this contract, but changed it to a SAT when he lauched this jacket. However after talking to him on the phone recently decided to revert to my original order as the Dubow is a sharper design. I decided to go for his seal brown Japanese hh with berry knits. He made my size 44 Dubow in the last few days and installed a NOS Talon zip. Most of my original and repro A2s are russet so a seal A2 from this 1942 contract will make a welcome change! Here are some of the pics which John sent me this morning. I should have the jacket in my possession by the weekend.

Stunning jacket Andrew Now please excuse me while I wipe the drool off my keyboard :lol:

 

[CBI]

Nice project Andrew - Looking forward to pics with you wearing it.

 

[rich]

Here's a posted before of my GW Dubow.

In my mind's eye, a perfect A-2 - it's really superb.

 

[Roughwear]

The Dubow arrived in the week and here are three pictures taken this afternoon. I'm extremely pleased with it. It is a very comfortable fit.