New from ELC

[dmar836]

I think a lot of it is that we want to sample so many things. A $120 shirt or $200 jeans that last 15-20 yrs or more or a $1500 jacket that lasts a lifetime are not necessarily money poorly spent. Of course few of us fit into the clothes we had 20 yrs ago!
The line between style and timelessness is being blurred. Affordable, durable, functional. Pick two.

 

[Cobblers161]

If AClassics have dropped prices it’s most likely because they were too high in the first place.

In all I’m just happy I bought too much a few years back as they’ll last for the next 10 years at least. Stockpile before it’s too late and keep a close watch on the Yen.

Tommy, feel free to climb atop your lefty soapbox, I’ll be joining you shortly ;-)

 

[dmar836]

Should not a "lefty"(if I understand the term correctly) be the first to boycott the garments from these countries? Just curious as I've thought a lot about it lately. Not buying from them could mean zero income as opposed to the current abismal income.
It's an interesting topic maybe for another thread?
Dave

 

[Cobblers161]

It’s not always easy to determine who to buy from if one makes it political.

I take the approach of never buying from high street outlets and therefore sweatshop made garments, I’ll research it first.

Most manufacturers, high end, have their clobber made in China now and we can only hope that while the workers wages may be low in comparison to a similar worker over here, that they at least are paid reasonably and relative to the cost of living. Until a few years ago most Japanese clothing(Buzz et al) was still made in Japan

I mostly buy UK based clothing, Old Town, Scott Fraser Clothing, SJC& Darcy spring to mind, which is made here and is still excellent quality at an affordable price. For denim it’s the US (Roys and Cone Mills rip) UK (Dawson Denim and LVC from Aero)and Japan(Studio D’art and Warehouse). Shoes it’s Alden, Trickers and Altberg(for walking boots).
The emphasis is on quality and long term use and as far as possible support smaller industry, local if possible.

My issue with the ELC N4 at £500 is that it’s neither long term use being cloth nor expensive to make.
Aero Leather are far more realistically priced, particularly the CC41 label which is ace!

 

[stanier]

I’m not convinced this is an issue that can be defined by politics. I’m not a lefty on any measure but on this point I agree with my lefty pals here.

Buying quality, locally traditional and / or traditionally produced heritage goods that treat all fairly at a fair price can only be the right thing for the customer, the worker manufacturing, the business owner and the world at large. Anything else is daft, imho.

 

[johnwayne]

Hmm, Son of Stag whenever I've looked I'm sure are marked up ELC prices and indeed they have lots of other nice gear but the same, all ludicrously silly prices but that's 'trendy' Brick Lane, London for you! But back to that N-1, I just can't get my head around £500 however nice the material is or how well made it might be and why I started this thread. Ok £500 for boots that might/could last you a lifetime maybe I can understand but I'd much rather have a decent used A2 than that N-1 at that cost and, might even get some change judging by what CBI sold some jackets for recently!!
Out of curiosity, I wonder if Gary Eastman reads what goes on here?

 

[colekwok]

Matt, If you look up the garment industry conditions - really any of the manufacturing conditions of some, okay most all, of the countries used, you see why it is so cheap. Even the greatest nationalist's wife is in line at Walmart so we all support cheaply made goods.
I know the prices of ELC, etc. are up there but we all live in a certain free world market where supply and demand run the show - to me that's a good thing. Sweaters jumped likely due to the fact they were moving too fast(not that someone needed a new car) and the price will level off and fall on these goods when the market speaks and people simply don't purchase them. If $400 for a cloth jacket was gravy profit, wouldn't I be making them?! If ELC sold this jacket for $149, they would always be out of stock and thread like this would be criticizing ELC saying they can't get it together - need to hire more help, don't respond to emails, etc. This is called bad business and ruins a business faster than raising prices.

Although I agree on the 'supply and demand theory', your suggestion of ELC selling their jacket for $149 does not make any sense to me (not because it is well under their production cost). Somebody mentioned the McCoys and Freewheelers in the earlier posts, one of the reasons why they can charge so much is because they are always out of stock, of course not because they are selling things cheap. Freewheelers in particular, produce their products in batches per season, if you miss one jacket, it will never come back. The same goes for some of Real McCoy's jackets as well. If the logic stands, I guess Goodwear will have to start charging $4000 for his jackets.

Despite China supposedly being Communist, in reality it works for the capitalist market. I'm not sure how much better working conditions are there than in say the sweatshops of india, etc.?

Depends on where those factories are located, you will be surprised to find that factories in China have much better welfare than some supermarkets or processing facilities in the UK. That is why productions are gradually moving away from the country to somewhere in South Asia and South America.

 

[stanier]

As someone who wouldn’t have an N-(is it 1 or 4?) for £5 let alone £500 I feel slightly unqualified but it does feel excessive to say the least. Surely customers will vote with their feet?!

Maybe there are only a few and ELC are testing the water, who knows but I agree the boots feel much better value than a cloth jacket.

I have no doubt Gary does come here. I also have no doubt he’s a shrewd business man who knows and tests his market. Maybe this jacket price is part of that, but again agree whilst the other prices feel that they might be in the bounds of the normal ELC expensive that jacket has burst the boundary!

 

[dmar836]

Although I agree on the 'supply and demand theory', your suggestion of ELC selling their jacket for $149 does not make any sense to me (not because it is well under their production cost).

That is if ELC, or any so-called "expensive" maker would attempt to compete with import pricing with the assumption that their high prices are not correlated with higher expenses - the assumption that high pricing is just greed. Also remember I am not criticizing the prices. I think they will work out based on demand. And I know I couldn't make a denim USN anything for $89. Members have said most of the cheap stuff is junk but that's based on expecting originality and durability which you just can't have at that price point. Still many more will rush to that cheaper price. We see it here and it isn't "wrong", ("...not bad for what I paid."). However, that low amount - say $120 will certainly not contribute to the better $400 item once it's spent either.

If the logic stands, I guess Goodwear will have to start charging $4000 for his jackets.

Not more than the market will bear. That isn't my logic. Supply and demand doesn't mean any buyers at all = any price at all. Also, consider that a wait is part of a price. What would those waiting be willing to compromise?

Depends on where those factories are located, you will be surprised to find that factories in China have much better welfare than some supermarkets or processing facilities in the UK.

I guess they don't post videos of the "nice" factories. That said, one can indeed request items from China or even India that meet certain very high standards but the margin goes away in a job shop environment. India, for example, could have made the Royal Enfield as good or better than Britain but not with affordability. Quality gave way as well. I think the Norton rebirth in the US had the same issues.
Remember, 1) quality, 2) affordability, 3) functionality. Pick two and the other will have to give.

Interesting discussion that to me isn't political, it's pure economics. It's theory but so are so many political views.
It is what it is and we all play into it with what we demand. Many(most) just don't analyze it.

Dave

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Aero's biggest % price increase co-incided with fitting out our curent factory in 1992

Hasn't ELC just moved?

Someone has to pay for that, logically that'll be the customer or shall we pass round the collecting tin?

Just stating the bleeding obvious

 

[John Lever]

Having run a small design business I can say that the overheads these days are huge.

 

[Cobblers161]

Aero's biggest % price increase co-incided with fitting out our curent factory in 1992

Hasn't ELC just moved?

Someone has to pay for that, logically that'll be the customer or shall we pass round the collecting tin?

Just stating the bleeding obvious

God forbid any manufacturer takes a hit on the profit margin, that same approach carries on right the way throughout UK services and it's always the punter who pays.

Perhaps Gary's vastly inflated the price of the N-4 to cover the move?

Anyway aren't those costs tax deductible or am I doing the self assessment on my second job incorrectly? Hopefully not, my wifes an accountant.

 

[John Lever]

Profit margin? Many small businesses just struggle to survive.

 

[Cobblers161]

There’s a multitudes of small business' with many different factors affecting them, you can’t just lump them in together.

And.... you can just pay a fortune for a jacket that really isn’t worth it.

 

[EmergencyIan]

Hell, you could but a NOS N-4 for that price.

- Ian

 

[Skyhawk]

Profit margin? Many small businesses just struggle to survive.

I can attest to that! When you think of the cost of the materials, equipment, supply shipments, labor, advertising, throw away materials from mistakes and damage, how much profit are we really talking about? This is a relatively small niche market. We are not selling levis and t-shirts.

Some of us smaller guys also have a day job. In my case more than 100% of the money goes back into the business. I hope to someday outgrow this phase and I am confident I will as my business is still relatively new.

It is naïve to think we are throwing these jackets together for a few hundred dollars and then sitting back and raking in the profits. It takes a lot of work and resources to put together accurate reproductions. Maybe a bit more than the average person realizes.

 

[Smithy]

If that price for the N-4 is due to relocation, then ELC must have relocated into the foyer of the Dorchester.

I'm sorry chaps but you can't reconcile 500 quid for what is essentially a M-41.

If it was made by a lost tribe of oiled, naked Amazonian beauties and out of thread woven from unicorn manes it would....still be bloody overpriced.

 

[dmar836]

God forbid any manufacturer takes a hit on the profit margin, that same approach carries on right the way throughout UK services and it's always the punter who pays.

First of all, consider that the average small business owner is a punter as well.

Anyway aren't those costs tax deductible or am I doing the self assessment on my second job incorrectly? Hopefully not, my wifes an accountant.

These statements fascinate me. Seriously, they do. I had a friend, when I owned a photography business(and another "real" job), who kept saying things like, "Come on. That's just a write off for you." I could never get him to understand that "writing off" didn't mean the money appeared out of nowhere. It simply meant I was able to deduct it as a business expense and just didn't have to pay taxes on that part. Taking a client out for a meal for example was not a free meal. I just deducted those business expenses and didn't owe taxes on that part of profit. It's not as if such expenses are magically added back in as profit. Even if "written off", nobody reimburses a business for moving expenses. Charitable giving is also tax deductible yet how many max that out?
I don't mean to be condescending but there is a real us-against-them mentality against business owners and it's tough to hear if you've ever been there.
Just sayin',
Dave
P.S. These prices don't effect me as I took matters into my own hands and learned to make my own crap which I occasionally share with others. It saves no money (and I certainly look no better!) but others' prices just no longer effect me.

 

[Cobblers161]

Funnily enough that's my position, I have a 'real' job and run a photography business.
I've just spent £3000 on a new camera body and £1600 on a lens but I won't be putting up my prices to cover it. I will benefit from the reduction in next years tax bill and be thankful that my profits were enough to enable me to purchase the new equipment.
If my profits weren't high enough then I wouldn't invest, I'd wait until I had enough savings or was in a position to afford repayments on a business loan. I appreciate however that my numbers are a lot smaller than say ELC.

Perhaps I'm taking too simple an approach?

Whichever way you look at it, as Smithy says, £500 for what is essentially a stripped down M-41 is crazy.

 

[John Lever]

Do you work from home as a sole trader ?
Having premises, paying staff, buying materials, paying business rates, insurance, public liability insurance, running vehicles, buying machinery, importing/exporting goods, is very a different matter.