Need help on buying my first Irvin!!

[mulceber]

Agreed, Burt. And a lighter weight Irvin wouldn't have been much use to pilots back then. Airmen were getting severe frost bite as it was flying those missions. Others may want a lighter fleece that's more congenial to higher temperatures, and I don't blame them for it, but it's not what I'm looking for.

 

[B-Man2]

I agree with you Jan . There will be some who prefer the lighter less dense fleece, as it’s more adaptable to changing temperatures. However, there are others like us who like repro jackets to duplicate originals to the most accurate details. Certainly an Irvin , B-6, B-3 etc . are unique, in that they were made for survival at below zero temperatures and part of the attraction to these jackets is the dense heavy fleece that they were made from to accomplish giving the wearer the warmth necessary to survive at 28,000ft in the air . In my opinion if you don’t have those properties then the jacket isn’t an accurate reproduction and it doesn’t do it for me .

 

[ES335]

For what it's worth: Beg, save, borrow, or rob a 7-11. Get what you really want the first time. And for gawd's sake don't buy ANYTHING from Pakistan.

 

[MaydayWei]

Get what you really want the first time.

^ The wisest words ever spoken on the VLJ.
A lot of people would have saved a lot of money if we just bought what we truly wanted the first time round without compromise.

 

[mulceber]

^ The wisest words ever spoken on the VLJ.
A lot of people would have saved a lot of money if we just bought what we truly wanted the first time round without compromise.

That being said, most of us would have then moved onto yet other jackets that we wanted, so we were probably doomed anyway.

 

[J.R.303]

As shown in these period photos, Irvin jacket was often worn one size up

I would say that it was what the quartermaster gave you.
Like it lump it or perhaps swap it.

 

[J.R.303]

Hi JR!
I just wanted to share my opinion with you regarding the Aero Merino Fleece Irvin Jacket that I purchased from Ken when they first came out around last May or June. Don’t quote me on the exact month as I didn’t make note of it . I found the jacket to be awesome in every detail except one . The tanned hides used for the Aero are the closest to an original that I’ve found . The looks of the jacket and the appearance of the jacket looks like a WWII Irvin in every respect . Unfortunately I’m not of the same opinion as to the density and depth of the fleece as yourself and John Lever. May I say that John wrote a wonderful review of the jacket and he has probably the most experience of anyone on this forum owning and handling fleece jackets. However, once again, I respectfully disagree with both of your opinions on this jacket. Briefly here’s why ; When I received the jacket and put it on, I immediately noticed that there was a definite difference in the thickness and density of the fleece. I also noticed that the length of the fleece was shorter than any of my other Irvin’s to include an ELC and an original 1939 Warings . I noticed that the first time I wore the jacket, it actually draped on me much like an A2 drapes . That was the first time I had ever experienced an Irvin that draped. I did a comparison between the fleece density and length of 3 Irvin’s I owned at the time , the original , the ELC and a What Price Glory Irvin jackets . What I found was that the Aero fleece most closely approximated the WPG jacket in fleece density , length and weight . Interestingly the WPG jacket is advertised as being a lighter weight more adaptable jacket for everyday wear . I immediately contacted Ken at Aero regarding this issue and after several conversations, and exchanges of photographs with measurements and density comparisons of the three jackets , Ken agreed that there “might be “ a difference in the merino fleece Irvin’s compared to his other normal Aero Irvin jackets currently for sale . He asked me to hold onto the jacket and that he would see to it that I would be able to trade the jacket in for one of the next batch of Merino fleece jackets being made sometime in the coming September time frame . He assured me that the new jackets would be comparable in weight to the more traditional Aero Irvin’s being sold . I agreed to do that and have been waiting ever since . However, Ken has been absent from the forum for sometime now , so I have little hope of an exchange at this point .
So with these facts in mind that’s why I differ with yours and Johns opinions on this jacket . I tried to say this in a respectful way, so as not to piss anyone off . It’s just my opinion .
I’ve attached a couple of photos of the draping effect of the Aero Merino vs the original Warings so you can visualize what I was describing .
Cheers
View attachment 68230View attachment 68231

I think Ken said that the second batch would be slightly thicker, so I'm not sure what you got. Having said that I believe the one John reviewed was a test one with even lighter fleece.
You are right in what you say about your comparison test, I have had various Irvins including an Aces High, an original ww2 and a WPG. The fit finish and day to day wearability of the merino beats them all. It depends what you are after in an Irvin.
Given a short amount of wear in time I bet you will reach for the merino as an easy wearing go to jacket.
I must get round to posting some photos!

 

[Smithy]

Then there's always exceptions to the commonly known "historical" Irvin style and fit - like this Typhoon pilot:

Just one thing - be aware that by this stage of the war that that photo was taken, that within Fighter Command, Irvins were only worn on the ground for warmth and not for operational flying. After the spring of 1940 Irvins decreased in use extremely rapidly to the point where by 1941 it was virtually unheard of them being used by airmen in Fighter Command for flying. I know one squadron leader with the AASF who had already banned their use by the end of the winter of '39/'40.

Interestingly during the extremely harsh winter of '44/'45 RAF fighter squadrons based on the rudimentary airfields on the Continent were supplied Irvins to keep warm on the ground but not for operational flying.

 

[Lorenzo_l]

Just one thing - be aware that by this stage of the war that that photo was taken, that within Fighter Command, Irvins were only worn on the ground for warmth and not for operational flying. After the spring of 1940 Irvins decreased in use extremely rapidly to the point where by 1941 it was virtually unheard of them being used by airmen in Fighter Command for flying. I know one squadron leader with the AASF who had already banned their use by the end of the winter of '39/'40.

Interestingly during the extremely harsh winter of '44/'45 RAF fighter squadrons based on the rudimentary airfields on the Continent were supplied Irvins to keep warm on the ground but not for operational flying.

That's interesting. Why did the Irvin fall out of favour with Fighter Command as a flying garment?

 

[Smithy]

That's interesting. Why did the Irvin fall out of favour with Fighter Command as a flying garment?

Because the collar (even when down) impeded backward visibility. It was also clumsy in single seat fighters, for example on Spits, larger pilots would often catch their Irvin sleeves on control surfaces like the trim controls. With the introduction of Suits, Aircrew and the following BD, it just reinforced that Irvins were just not necessary for fighter aircraft.

 

[mulceber]

You mention Fighter Command repeatedly, Tim. What was the policy regarding Irvin’s at bomber command?

 

[Smithy]

You mention Fighter Command repeatedly, Tim. What was the policy regarding Irvin’s at bomber command?

The Irvin (suit) was used operationally by BC right up until the end of the war on medium to high altitude raids Jan.

 

[mulceber]

Thanks a bunch for the clarification.

 

[Micawber]

More room in a bomber although the turrets were somewhat cramped.

 

[Sideslip]

Am a little confused. @B-Man2 commented above that the Aero Merino tanned hide is the closest to original, but his opinion is that the fleece is different. I think that John may have made a similar comment in his merino review. I have never knowingly seen / touched an original.

Mindful of this comment:

^ The wisest words ever spoken on the VLJ.
A lot of people would have saved a lot of money if we just bought what we truly wanted the first time round without compromise.

I have the pre-war 44 (work has been brutal, keep missing post office), am now wondering if I should stretch the extra £100 for the merino if the main difference between the non-merino and merino Irvin the density/length of the fleece and the more accurate tanned hide? Is it a question of how much historical accuracy one is seeking? (Be gentle, I have only just succombed to this addiction).

 

[mulceber]

Is it a question of how much historical accuracy one is seeking? (Be gentle, I have only just succombed to this addiction).

Precisely. What Burt and I are saying is that originals had both thicker fleece (as in, you can take a ruler and measure how deep the fleece is) and denser fleece (more hairs per square centimeter). That makes for a warmer jacket (important for bomber crews, since they were operating at -40 degree temperatures), but is less convenient if you're just looking to wear it in ordinary British winters. Some people really care about having every detail be right, others just want a jacket that looks the part, and are willing to sacrifice accuracy if it means being able to wear the jacket more often. I'm in the former camp, but then, I live in Michigan, where it's cold enough to wear accurate shearling. You may very well feel differently. We just want to make sure you go in with your eyes open.

 

[B-Man2]

Am a little confused. @B-Man2 commented above that the Aero Merino tanned hide is the closest to original, but his opinion is that the fleece is different. I think that John may have made a similar comment in his merino review. I have never knowingly seen / touched an original.

Mindful of this comment:

I have the pre-war 44 (work has been brutal, keep missing post office), am now wondering if I should stretch the extra £100 for the merino if the main difference between the non-merino and merino Irvin the density/length of the fleece and the more accurate tanned hide? Is it a question of how much historical accuracy one is seeking? (Be gentle, I have only just succombed to this addiction).

Hi Sideslip .
If your in the midst of buying an Irvin you’ve received a wealth of information right at a crucial time, just prior to your purchase . I’ve found that this can be a helpful thing or in some cases just add to the confusion . My apologies if I contributed to the confusing part of all of this . Finding your way out of all of this is probably best accomplished by reading everything that’s been posted, and then analyzing what you intend to do with the jacket and how you intend to use it , and then making your own determination as to what works best for you. There’s really nothing left to offer in the way of suggestions or advice at this point and it all come down to your personal requirements for the jacket you intend on purchasing .
Good luck with your search

 

[Chris 55]

Nothing cooler than John Mills rocking a big Irvin Inthe film.
The Way to the Stars 1945

 

[Sideslip]

Hi Sideslip .
If your in the midst of buying an Irvin you’ve received a wealth of information right at a crucial time, just prior to your purchase . I’ve found that this can be a helpful thing or in some cases just add to the confusion . My apologies if I contributed to the confusing part of all of this . Finding your way out of all of this is probably best accomplished by reading everything that’s been posted, and then analyzing what you intend to do with the jacket and how you intend to use it , and then making your own determination as to what works best for you. There’s really nothing left to offer in the way of suggestions or advice at this point and it all come down to your personal requirements for the jacket you intend on purchasing .
Good luck with your search

Thank you for this which serves as a wise and kind "get a grip on yourself!" . You are absolutely right, much appreciated.

 

[B-Man2]

Thank you for this which serves as a wise and kind "get a grip on yourself!" . You are absolutely right, much appreciated.

Certainly nothing was meant to be negative, I promise you.
I’ve been right where you are on just about every jacket I’ve purchased over the years. It’s unsettling and frustrating at times. I’ve always questioned my choices right up to the point that I put my money down and then felt very unsettled until it arrived . It’s a process and we all go through it . I’m not sure if this makes you feel better or worse , but I can assure you it’s intended to make you feel better .
Cheers