Navy jackets what's with the collar

[Anonymous]

Merry X-mas guys

I noticed that in all the originals the mouton collar is narrow at the edges

Example

but all the repro makers without exeptions I guess, make it wider at the end of the lapel

Example

Anyone has any idea why ?

 

[Gunner Barnes]

Hi Platon,

I'm no authority on US Navy jackets - although I do own a couple - but I'll venture a guess. Looks like the repro is a Goodwear M422 (a WWII vintage design), while the original is a post-war G-1. (Looks like a Star Sportswear, to me.) Similar, though not identical, models.

I've noticed that the collar of the M-422 is typically longer/pointier than that of the G-1. I believe the M-422 jacket is also somewhat longer in the body than the G-1, though that may be down to the maker.

The collar shape of the G-1 also seems to vary according to maker and vintage. I have a Cagleco G-1 (undated, as far as I can tell), whose collar is much pointier, and the mouton much longer/thicker than on my 1961 Foster.

In short, the Navy G-1 type jacket has gone through a number of design changes over the years, while retaining its instantly recognisable and classic lines.

But I'll let those more knowledgeable than myself jump in!

Merry Christmas, everyone,

Simon.

 

[Maverickson]

Hi Platon,

I have put together a couple of different collar examples from my small collection of USN jackets in an attempt to show some differences in collar sizes. After viewing your 1960s jacket those differences between collar sizes seem to be subtle at best. These coming examples seen below date approximately ten years apart.

This is a look at the collar one of my more favorite Werber (AER ) or my most favorite series of G-1 jackets. This Werber dates the early 1950s.

As you can see this jacket exhibits a slight or more defined collar but dates a good 10 years earlier than your example.

The earliest example from my collection of flight jackets is my Willis & Geiger M-422A. The contract for this jacket dates the early 1940s and not unlike John Chapman's Monarch. The collar is large but then again not much larger than the Werber's then again more large than your 1960s G-1 example. It will soon be sporting a new mouton viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5124 that I faded using natural sunlight while sitting on the dash of my vehicle.

I am not sure if there is any real rhyme or reason to the size of a mouton collar on these USN jackets as I have seen them vary in size depending on the maker rather than the era that the jackets were manufactured.

Along the same lines I have seen many USN jackets from the same vintage exhibit both large and small collars sizes. I think that either Roger Moore's website or John Chapman's Flight Jacket CD do a good job showing those different collars.

Cheers, Dave

 

[deeb7]

Looking at the M422, and M422A's on John's CD, his Monarch repro mouton fits right in there, as of course it would do. No one else is a keener observer of the details ... he's not going to get a collar wrong.

G-1's may vary more in collar size, and shape, but that shrunken looking example you posted is extreme. Perhaps it's been out in the rain too many times ...

 

[zoomer]

IIRC, some commands did not authorize the G-1 collar to be worn fastened or popped - even in flight.
So the shrinking collar might have been an economy measure - in fact probably was one anyway.

 

[buzzthetower]

Gents,

Here's a comparison photo between the original (in size 40 or 42), and one of my early copies in size 44. You can see that the collar size and shape is correct.

Here's another original Monarch M-422 that's been on eBay for a while...

So, for a Monarch, the shape is correct, but yes, later Navy jackets had smaller collars. Mouton also gets smaller the more it curls up from wear, sweat, seawater and humidity.

Someone asked if mouton lightens with age. If tanned and colored in the same manner as was commonly seen in the 1940s, it definitely lightens in color with use and sunlight. In the past I've taken collars off a few WWII-1950s jackets, and the level of color fade from the outermost fur to the base color was evident. Usually the base color of the fur is close in shade to the leather, and it gets lighter and lighter towards the tips of the fur. When new, it would have been pure in color from tip to base.

Merry Christmas!
John

 

[Grant]

John get's the collar right for the Monarch M-422. For reference here's a photo of an original W&G M-422.

Merry Christmas fellow jacket freaks

 

[better duck]

Hi Platon,
(....)
Merry Christmas, everyone,
Simon.

Hi there Simon, very welcome to our forum! Enjoy it.

 

[Anonymous]

Dear John (Chapman),
No doubt your collars are correct, as are all the details of your jacket.

The reason I ask is because I like the small collar and I thought that maybe the repro makers don't do it small because they dont want or cant due to perhaps something that has to do with the modern materials (mouton), or I don't know.

So, when the time comes for me to buy Navy jacket I'd like to know if small collar will be available.

 

[greyhound52]

Most of the repro makers make the 422 which has the wider collar there are a few that make the later version with the smaller collar. I would suggest that you troll ebay. There are lots of G-1s available that would fit the bill for you. In fact, a couple of forum members have offered almost mint or near mint 7823 model G-1s that would be exactly what you want.

 

[Jaydee]

I think it has more to do with the manufacturer's design than the specs or economy, at least in the 50's and 60's. I have seen a lot of varience in collars on jackets from this time period. The 1950's LW Foster G-1s have the smallest, trimest collars I have seen on a G-1. Whereas in contrast, the Cagleco from basically the same time period has a collar with rounded tips a lot like the M-422a. In reading through the specs on the G-1 I recall that collar shape was not defined, only the materials to be used were.

1950's Cagleco:

 

[Curahee]

Most of the repro makers make the 422 which has the wider collar there are a few that make the later version with the smaller collar. I would suggest that you troll ebay. There are lots of G-1s available that would fit the bill for you. In fact, a couple of forum members have offered almost mint or near mint 7823 model G-1s that would be exactly what you want.

Also a nice 1950's -1960's G-1 will cost you less than a good repro (I'm not complaining John) I'd say $ 200 - 450 max. so
a repro maker will make that jacket wich is hardest to come by AND of course the 1940's are the best quality.