shanghai joe
New Member
taikonaut said:
think craggy charles bronson.............
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Most highly regarded leather grain?
- Thread starter taikonaut
- Start date
think craggy charles bronson.............
airfrogusmc
Well-Known Member
Nope they were all over the place but and then theres the different tanning process to also consider that effect things like stiffness. But one thing we do know is some of the 27798 contract were aniline dyed which does, trough its very nature, make the leather more pliable. Its hard to tell from photos true but leather weight on most repros is to heavy and to smooth as compared to most originals.
Paul is a collector that had a HUGE collection of originals. His opinion, because he has handle HUNDREDS of originals, bares allot of weight. There have probably been times when he's had 50 maybe 60 originals in his collection at one time. He has Pearalls jacket, the one picture in AFJ (Maguire) he also has a VERY RARE 37 Aero artic white B-3 in verg good condition. He had a size 50 B-7 with the gloves and the matching pants in almost new condition and I think Gary Eastman has the 33 Werber he used to own.
On the 27798 contract things like color, thickness of hide, grain, type of tanning on the hides, varied but having said that most of the repro makers hides are to the heavy side to the point of extreme. I've owned all the major players repros and the really telling thing to do is to hold them right next to origianls. And if you can do it with several from the same contract and none of the origianls is anything like or the repro couldn't have gotten to where the originals are after 60 years, well, you can draw some conclusions.
Paul is a collector that had a HUGE collection of originals. His opinion, because he has handle HUNDREDS of originals, bares allot of weight. There have probably been times when he's had 50 maybe 60 originals in his collection at one time. He has Pearalls jacket, the one picture in AFJ (Maguire) he also has a VERY RARE 37 Aero artic white B-3 in verg good condition. He had a size 50 B-7 with the gloves and the matching pants in almost new condition and I think Gary Eastman has the 33 Werber he used to own.
On the 27798 contract things like color, thickness of hide, grain, type of tanning on the hides, varied but having said that most of the repro makers hides are to the heavy side to the point of extreme. I've owned all the major players repros and the really telling thing to do is to hold them right next to origianls. And if you can do it with several from the same contract and none of the origianls is anything like or the repro couldn't have gotten to where the originals are after 60 years, well, you can draw some conclusions.
Chandler
Well-Known Member
airfrogusmc said:
While there's no doubt respect is due Paul's knowledge of detail on original jackets, the fact remains he (or any of us) were never in line to be handed an A-2 new from the box. "Drawing conclusions" is nothing more than speculation on something near to a century old.
I'd really like to see notes, a journal, memoirs from a pilot who was as geeked over his jacket as most of us our these days, but to them it was only another piece of equipment.
Chandler
airfrogusmc
Well-Known Member
Nope they don't...
airfrogusmc
Well-Known Member
Chandler said:
Lets do this Chandler
Show me a 27798 Dubow REPRO more accurate than GWs Dubow.
Chandler
Well-Known Member
airfrogusmc said:
You miss the point, I never said that the GW wasn't a good repro, I just pondered whether or not yours looked thin to others because of its wider real estate and the way the hide fell because of that.
I then questioned perception that anyone can judge how an original may have felt or looked some 60+ years ago -- which brings into question why everyone feels hell bent to decide which repro is best or better -- they're still repros.
To Talkonaut's post, there are just too many variables involved when you look at it rationally. We all wish we could be in the same shape as Major Winters in 1942, maybe all our clothes would fit better! But to the drape of his A-2, I'd say that my ELC Star looks pretty similar -- and the thickness of the hide is the same as my ELC 1401, if not the same animal, tanning, or finish. If only I were 23 again and as fit as if I ran Currahee every day.
Chandler
airfrogusmc
Well-Known Member
Chandler said:
And my response was its very much in line with allot of origianl 27798s. I also went on to say that most makers hides are to heavy I never mentioned any maker by name and I was refering to most of the repro makers that make 27798 Dubows. As far as ELC goes they seem to be using more interesting hides lately but the some of the older ones have very smooth not very convincing hides. Paul had a 1401 that he never liked. Had it for a short time and sold. Didn't look ANYTHING like his original 1401s. (he has several) and had a killer original 1401 almost mint size 48... The Star has always been one of my favorite Eastmans but the one Jake had was smooth as a babies butt.
taikonaut
Active Member
Chandler,
Judging by the size of the patch I would say I am about one size smaller than Maj Winters but for an appropriate size jacket I am close to the same shape as the man. I use to model uniform for my friend who owns an antique store as they often dont fit anyone else
My Perry drapes like that after I applied pecard and is still wet but when it dried it back to vintage hard leather drape. I think the problem with most repro makes is they make new jackets while emulating the stiffness of vintage hide and by doing so gave the jacket a thicker hide. That is just my guess.
airfrogusmc
Well-Known Member
But don't forget tanning process also did influence and does influence hide stiffness....
Chandler
Well-Known Member
airfrogusmc said:
And I wasn't implying any one maker, just that I have ELC and FS.
My 1401 is over 10 years old and looks very much like one of the originals that was posted on the last incarnation of VLJ, it also looks like the 1401 pictured in Suit Up! It started out smooth and very stiff, but has broken in very grainy and become softer -- though not buttery. Pre-anilines from ELC.
Was Jake's brand new? Mine was somewhat new when I got it used, slightly smooth, but is starting to show more grain character with wear. Look at that image of Winters' A-2, it's showing hardly any grain except on the pocket -- wonder what it looked like in '45?
My FS is a goatskin of the older hides that FS used -- caramel color that looks like old Cable jackets, very grainy and sort of crisp feeling, yet drapes nicely.
All that said about 3 different repros probably makes the point to originals that they were all just as different from each other over the years they were churned out.
With all that, I need to follow thru on my promise to get some pics and figure out the posting process.
Chandler
airfrogusmc
Well-Known Member
The 27752 I had was a good weight just the hide had very little grain and had a very strange red that it wore to. Not tan like original 27752 and to change the subject a bit weren't most original Stars MUCH lighter? The dark ones were redyes?
Chandler
Well-Known Member
taikonaut said:
Not at the moment, I'm a little finished buying any more repros at this time, sort of have the bug itched out. But never say never, I could always win that PowerBall!
Allen, I know you changed the subject, but I wasn't aware we were focused on color. Finishes can add more to the hide than just color.
To your question, I think I've heard that the Stars could run from dark to more of a reddish seal, but I'm no expert at all. I just know that my repro fits me pretty well and I like the hide about the best of any of my jackets.
Chandler
airfrogusmc
Well-Known Member
Chandler said:
Ok but I thought we were talking accuracy but lets get back to grain. Is there allot on the Star of yours? I've seen several and they were all pretty much grainless. So you've never handled or seen a GW? I've owned and/or seen dozens from all the major players and GWs have so far been the most accurate I've seen when it comes to REPROS. The grain is right the hide weight is as good as anyones, better than most and the pattern and cut is right. Pauls original 1401 size 38 was much different fit wise of the ELC 1401 size 38 he had and the hide was well nothing close and couldn't get there even after 60 years of wear.
Ok lets try this then, show me another repro that has more authentic grain on their hides.
Chandler
Well-Known Member
airfrogusmc said:
Yes, there is.
As issued, or after 4 years in use? That's the real argument here, I suppose. That not all A-2s were gnarly, grainy as issued -- just look at Winters'. And I don't believe all of GW's hides are grainy as-new either, are they? And to your point from before, it seems like the manufacturers are always changing up their hides.
But before you lead this down the path you're steering; I'm not now, nor have I ever talked down the Good Wear jackets. In fact, I haven't talked down any repro... well, maybe Avirex.
Chandler
airfrogusmc
Well-Known Member
Yeah me to cause every one I've seen is SMOOOOTH....bseal said:I'd love to see a grainy Star Sportswear from ELC. Beautiful jacket, looking forward to the pictures.
