Most highly regarded leather grain?

[taikonaut]

Hi All,
I understand much of it is down to personal preference but is there such a thing as particular grains that are highly regarded by vintage flight jacket collectors?

I noticed Acme website when they review the example of the Dubow there was favourable mention of the variation of leather grains of that particular jacket possibly made from different hides.

 

[bseal]

Looks like a GW Vermont Expresso Dubow.

 

[greyhound52]

Looks like a GW Vermont Expresso Dubow.

There you go again. :lol:

 

[bfrench]

Hi All,
I understand much of it is down to personal preference but is there such a thing as particular grains that are highly regarded by vintage flight jacket collectors?

I noticed Acme website when they review the example of the Dubow there was favourable mention of the variation of leather grains of that particular jacket possibly made from different hides.

Hi, taikonaut,

This is from a repro collector and a limited one at that.

My opinion is that the grainy area shown in the white circle area of your picture is the most sought after - this being because of the chatacter reflected in the wide area wrinkles as opposed to the flat featureless areas of the other part of the jacket or the slight close knit fairly smooth wrinkly areas.

These large area wrinkled parts give the appearance of aging such as the dark suntanned wrinkled face one sees on a person who has spent a lifetime outside - it just speaks of adventure whereas a person with a white unwrinkled complexion just says that here's a person who has led a secluded life indoors, protected from all the elements and not likely to have had many adventurous experiences.

Even worse is the type who have the sun tan parlour type of complexion pretending to be the outdoor type -- smooth skin with a not quite natural coloring - the George Hamilton type if you will - this is what the close celled small wrinkles remind me of - trying hard but not quite good enough to be the real thing.

And the bottom of the lader is the beautiful grainy hide that has been rolled flat under extreme pressure at the tanneries to make furniture leather that some of the makers use for jackets - it may last for 60 years but will always look like a china porcelain doll.

Give me that gnarly, wrinkled and pock marked leather every time - just reminds me of the adventure and places it could have been and gone.

As you said at the start - there is no right or wrong just personal preference - me, I'm the old cowboy Jack Palance type.

Bill French

 

[taikonaut]

Thanks Bill,
I have an Aero that has different variation of hides like this Dubow except it has no smooth hides. It is covered in grains plus those same grains on the sleeves seen in this Dubow which is very soft. Overall the hide on my Aero is not thin and apart from the bottom sleeve panel which is soft with wide deep grains the jacket feel strong and tough.

 

[bfrench]

Thanks Bill,
I have an Aero that has different variation of hides like this Dubow except it has no smooth hides. It is covered in grains plus those same grains on the sleeves seen in this Dubow which is very soft. Overall the hide on my Aero is not thin and apart from the bottom sleeve panel which is soft with wide deep grains the jacket feel strong and tough.

Hi, taikonaut,

That's another feature I like - slightly heavier skins - I'd rather take a longer time to tame the skin that's on the heavy side than to have the hide that drapes right out of the box.

Like I said before - there's no counting for preference.

Bill French

 

[taikonaut]

I wonder if a "Jack Palance" might become a terminology use to describe vintage leather that has those heavy grain features?

 

[taikonaut]

Here is my "Jack Palance"

http://www.pbase.com/shinsakuto/image/96037428/original

http://www.pbase.com/shinsakuto/image/96037426/original

http://www.pbase.com/shinsakuto/image/96037424/original

I like the way the collars folded and set over the years

http://www.pbase.com/shinsakuto/image/96037422/original

 

[airfrogusmc]

Hi All,
I understand much of it is down to personal preference but is there such a thing as particular grains that are highly regarded by vintage flight jacket collectors?

I noticed Acme website when they review the example of the Dubow there was favourable mention of the variation of leather grains of that particular jacket possibly made from different hides.

Just to fuel the fire
GW Dubow

 

[Chandler]

Looks like a GW Vermont Expresso Dubow.

Looks a lot like an old Avirex I used to have.

:shock:

Chandler

 

[bseal]

Avirex, US Wings, US Authentic and then GW. Definitely in that order.

 

[Peter Graham]

I love the grain on my 27753. Here's a few pics.

 

[taikonaut]

[quote="airfrogusmcJust to fuel the fire
GW Dubow

[/quote]

Is this GW Dubow has a thin hide?

 

[airfrogusmc]

Yep...Its thin just like most originals.

 

[Chandler]

Most originals? Wow, you seen a lotta originals. :?

Seriously though, does that 52 just appear thin in photos because of the hide real estate?
Does the thickness feel the same as, say, a 44?

Chandler

 

[airfrogusmc]

Most repro makers really over do the weight of the hide. I have seen allot of originals (Thanks to Paul) and the hide is thinner in and way more relaxed (just like originals) in the areas with allot of grain. Hide thickness varied as did color on the 27798 contract. I think Paul had maybe a dozen of so 27798s at one time (at one time he had GOOD examples of every contractor) even a 33, 39 and 42 Werbers.

 

[Chandler]

the hide is thinner in and way more relaxed (just like originals) in the areas with allot of grain.

But don't you think some of that relaxed quality in the originals was due to wear over time? I would.

The originals I've seen and handled (while not in the dozens) don't feel exactly "thinner" than the repros I've compared to, but as you've said, "relaxed." Pinching the hide together between your fingers, or checking at the pockets, you can judge the thickness in a comparative manner and they all seem quite similar (though I won't claim to be as adept in judging between millimeters). Overall, I guess what I've noticed most is that age-wear is more variable than thickness in both originals and repros.

What I wondered with a jacket of such an unusually large size (and presumably the same hide weight as spec for any A-2) is whether that changed the drape of the hide to "appear" thinner -- just because there's more area for the material to flow.

Chandler

 

[airfrogusmc]

If you looks at allot of period photos they drape allot different than most repros. Originals being way more relaxed. One of Pauls biggest complaint about repros is the leather doesn't have enough grain and they're to heavy leather wise and he's handled HUNDREDS and I agree. Pockets can be miss leading, look at the leather by the wind flap on the body of the jacket. Next time I hook up with Paul I'll grab one of his Dubows (originals) and photograph both the original and the repro showing thickness by the windflap. Also allot of originals had varied thinness on the same jacket and those that had smooth areas and grainy on the same piece could vary also being thinner and more pliable by the grain. One reason that repros have heavier/smoother hide on average is most consumers don't want thin nasty grained stuff. So its hard to find thinner 2-2 1/2 oz hides that are grainy. Allot of originals fall into that thinner category. Some of the no names had heavier hides and they also varied on the 27798 contract. If I remember right Pauls original size 52 is actually heavier than most original 27798s.

 

[shanghai joe]

time thins leather thru derma abrasion and relaxes leather?

 

[Chandler]

If you looks at allot of period photos they drape allot different than most repros.

I think that depends on many different factors, from time period to size to manufacturer -- in both originals and repros. My horsehide drapes very different from my goatskin and the goat drapes very different from my steerhide. I also mentioned an old Avirex horsehide that, again, draped very differently from the others.

Between the 3 hides mentioned above, they all feel just about the same weight and thickness. There are just too many variables in the jackets (vintage and repro) to state one particular "look" is most authentic -- IMHO.

One of Pauls biggest complaint about repros is the leather doesn't have enough grain

Is Paul a WW2 vet who was issuing new A-2s? My point being, how can any of us know what an original looked like new from the box?

Pockets can be miss leading, look at the leather by the wind flap on the body of the jacket.

I wasn't talking the pockets exclusively, just to find a spot where there's a true, single-thickness of the leather. And the wind-flap is doubled over, I'd never use that as a gauge.

Chandler