Militaria flippers, a shameless phenomena. Base! base! base!

[ausreenactor]

You really can't get annoyed about this because this happens with everything: classic cars; art; stamps; coins; antiques; etc.

It's part of the buying and selling world of anything that is either collectible and/or desirable.

You have to remember that "our hobby" isn't driven by sentimentality, like everything else in the world where you are buying and selling, it's based on a margin and supply and demand.

I'm not going to get into arguing whether this is right or wrong but just as the sky is blue that's just how it is and it's not worth getting annoyed about it because the world of selling and buying isn't going to change just like the colour of the sky isn't

I sold my soul...once! Buyer got it for a bargain.

 

[917_k]

Not sure what the issue is here? I do the same to be perfectly honest. I have an Instagram page that I’m trying to build a following on, with the purpose amongst other things of selling stuff to make a profit. I put in the time and effort to find the stuff that someone else is unwilling to do and hopefully I’ll find some bargains that I can sell for a profit. If the buying party is happy to pay the price then everyone’s a winner.


I think to suggest that these people no less enthusiastic and passionate about the hobby is quite rude and unfair. Some of the individuals in question are the nicest, most helpful people you could meet, including the gentleman selling the Gemini jacket, who I happen to know. I really respect you @MaydayWei but to describe these individuals as unsavoury is quite frankly absolute nonsense.

 

[MaydayWei]

I think to suggest that these people no less enthusiastic and passionate about the hobby is quite rude and unfair. Some of the individuals in question are the nicest, most helpful people you could meet, including the gentleman selling the Gemini jacket, who I happen to know.
...but to describe these individuals as unsavoury is quite frankly absolute nonsense.

Sorry, but this is total nonsense.

Firstly, you do realise right that Jorge sells jackets? often listing them for way more than the current market price and quite obviously for a LOT more than he has paid for them. Is he any less of an enthusiast? Obviously not.

Do you actually know anything about the people you describe as ‘flippers’? I’m a flipper. I hoovered up 3 B-15C jackets on eBay, no more have been listed since, I intend to sell 2 of them for a big profit when the time is right. The gentleman who bought the Gemini jacket, he does exactly the same thing. Him, myself and others in this hobby are also extremely passionate about the jackets themselves and the history. The desire to make some money at the same time does not in any way lessen that.

I genuinely appreciate your differing point of view @917_k. Also know that I too respect you greatly.
I'm afraid, however, that we have fundamentally opposing and irreconcilable opinions.
If you feel mine is total nonsense, you have every right to do so.

I will admit, that I may have made a connection between flipping and being of unsavoury moral character.
I will retract that. A nice or helpful person may still partake in an activity that is morally reprehensible.
As such, my revised statement is that the act/practice of flipping is morally reprehensible and not necessarily the person themselves.

That said, I do think (without comment as to your personal character) that 'hoovering up' all the B-15Cs just to sell them off for profit does put your personal profit above the community.
Supply and demand, blah blah. No, sir. You are starving the market which inflates the demand whilst possessing the only means of supply. Flippers, together, act as a cartel of sorts. There's a reason why such practices are banned by EU Competition laws.

I am still steadfast in my belief that in doing so, you are acting only to serve your own monetary self-interest.
This is a fact.
I will concede that it may be that you are just as passionate of the jackets and history, but it does not change the fact that this practice is indeed at the cost of the community, for your personal gain, and in my view a morally reprehensible practice (without comment as to your personal character).
Good people can still do selfish or morally deficient things.

Thank you for calling me out, but I'm afraid not everything I've said is nonsense.

 

[917_k]

“Above” what community though? Maybe me and other people buying up these jackets ensures they remain on the market, rather than ending up solely in the hands of collectors who will hoard them. If I buy something with the express purpose of selling it on, for a profit, perhaps I’m benefiting people who wish to own and wear vintage clothing but don’t know where to find it/can’t be bothered to go looking. I appreciate that might annoy ‘collectors’, who want to add something to there collection for a bargain price, but that particular group do not have the sole right to this stuff. The few pieces I have so far sold have mostly been to people who appreciate well designed, ethical (vintage clothing rather than fast fashion) garments and like the aesthetic of military jackets. They’re not willing to spend hours trawling through Ebay, visit yard sales and collectors fairs, or attend auctions in order to own this stuff. Collectors to will occasionally purchase stuff from myself and others, however like me they’ll probably know where to find it for less in the first place, so that’s not as common.

I get your frustrations, but I just think they’re so totally misplaced. It’s common in every interest that the collector/hoarder segment get annoyed at this, but it’s mostly because given the opportunity they’d like to just own and hoard everything, or they’re just secretly a bit annoyed they didn’t think to grab a bargain to turn a profit.

So in my humble opinion, the clothing collector-traders (what you refer to as ‘flippers’) actually widen and expand the community and offer a vital service in bringing interesting garments to an audience who might otherwise not have access to such things. All credit to people like Saunders Militaria, who you referred to previously (albeit not naming him) for putting in the hours, sharing their vast collections and at that same time offering a service that every single one of their customers is extremely happy with.

Just to add as well: none of the people you describe as ‘flippers’ has any special advantage. They’re just spending time in the main sifting through ebay, anyone could do it. There is no cartel or dodgy trading or any sort of unfair advantage, practises that rightly in some markets are banned. It’s just finding old stuff, at what the buyer has deemed to be a below market price, that they believe they can pass on for a profit, which also partly covers their time and labour. It’s basic retail, no more nor less, it’s just there’s not a wholesale warehouse supplying rare military jackets (there are for lots of other vintage clothing).

 

[MaydayWei]

@917_k Thank you for taking the time to engage with me so deeply on this matter.

Accessibility & ‘Hoarding’:
You argue that collectors hoard, and that flippers keep the goods on the market and thereby enhance accessibility to an audience that would otherwise not know where or how to purchase such goods. (para 1, para 3).
I disagree entirely.
Flippers quite literally hoard goods (i.e. hoovering up all the B-15Cs). Flippers hold on to these goods, stash them away, till an “appropriate time” of inflated demand before selling them on for personal profit. Flippers do not enhance accessibility at all. Indeed, Flippers do exactly what you accuse collectors of doing. Flippers hoard. Given the opportunity, flippers would hoard everything they can get their hands on. Buy every jacket, buy every scrap of RAF ventile, buy everything; then just sit on it till the prices are through the roof.
Flippers are (quite literally) the very menace you’ve misattributed to ‘collectors’!

Special advantage & Unfair practices:
You are absolutely right, there are no special advantages. ‘Flippers’ simply trawl through Ebay, go to auctions etc. etc. (para 4) Nothing wrong with that.
The reference to cartels goes to how (by hoarding) flippers artificially inflate demand. That is a fact.
But, is this right or wrong? You are right in saying that these goods are not the sole property of anyone. But when a few buy up all the means of production (or in this case, all of the existing stock (because production has ceased), they (effectively) influence market prices in practice. And to whose benefit? You can guess.
It is an unfair practice. To say that such practices do not artificially shift the power dynamic between would-be enthusiasts and flippers is plainly incorrect. In a world where flippers have hoarded all the stock, buyers have (practically) no other option but to agree to inflated prices (caused by flipper hoarding till the prices are 'right').
I’m sorry, my friend, but you can’t possibly describe such behaviour as good faith, honest, open, or fair.

Community:
Above what community you ask (para 1)? The community of enthusiasts.
As stated in my previous posts, it shifts the focus of the hobby from the jackets themselves (for what they are) to their market value, or for what dollar amount you can sell them on for. It encourages a change in the predominant appreciation of their history, craftsmanship, etc. to ‘how much can I sell this on for in 5, 10, 20 years’?
It is my humble opinion that his hobby is not and should not be about the money. It should not be about how much I can sell these on for in 30 years. This is a mistake that the watch and car world has made, and I would be vexed to see it happen here too. It is my opinion that if one claims to be enthusiast that they should focus on the passion of it all, and not about how much they can profit off their fellow enthusiasts.

Conclusion:
We disagree fundamentally and irreconcilably and that is okay.
I can appreciate your POV, but I disagree with the premises on which you have presented your argument for the reasons above.
Nonetheless, I am glad we can have such an open and honest discussion on this forum.

 

[Smithy]

I'm not getting involved in this as I've made my ideas on this on the first page of this thread but I just wanted to say how nice it is to see two guys with completely different opinions stating their cases in a gentlemanly and polite manner. No name calling, or getting pissed off and letting rip at the other guy. No rudeness or BS.

Nice one 917 and Mayday. Fine example of how to disagree about something and still discuss it without it going nuclear.

 

[B-Man2]

Agree with Smithy . You guys went at this damn nicely and respectfully, without getting personal . Definitely a credit to both of you . Now might be the time to agree to disagree and let it go. Kudos to both of you.

 

[917_k]

Ultimately we all experience and engage in this hobby in a number of different ways. Thanks for sharing your views @MaydayWei and challenging me on mine.

 

[ausreenactor]

I get it now. I AM just a hoarder!

Boxes and porta-robes full of WWII kit that never sees daylight?

 

[ausreenactor]

Ultimately we all experience and engage in this hobby in a number of different ways. Thanks for sharing your views @MaydayWei and challenging me on mine.

And it is impossible to F2F with all off us on the periphery shouting ''Fight, fight, fight!'

Well done everyone! It only takes one or two posts to lower the intent of the debate. And we all have a lot to focus on at this point.

Stay classy!

 

[MaydayWei]

Ultimately we all experience and engage in this hobby in a number of different ways. Thanks for sharing your views @MaydayWei and challenging me on mine.

We do, indeed. I thank you for taking the time to genuinely think through a proper response to mine.
I'd happily buy you a few pints if you ever wish to discuss it further or just shoot the shit if you're over on the West Coast of Canada!

 

[DenimCanvasCamo]

I feel like I should jump in here, not through feeling any need to defend myself, but rather, as my name has been dragged through the mud by another member, to provide a definitive counter argument. And many thanks to both Jorge and Rob for your jumping to my defence, both good friends with whom I have shared my passion for collecting for many years.

Firstly, I am a collector. So is Saunders. So is Bob at Vintage Productions and every other dealer going, that's how we all started. Ultimately I buy and sell items partly to build my own collection.

Secondly, I am a dealer. I spend a long time searching for rarer items. I recognise the value in them, and certainly where they have been undervalued. In many cases I spend a long time and a lot of effort and money researching their history, repairing, and restoring. Every item that I have leaves my possession in better condition than that in which it arrived. This is a core part of my business, in ensuring those pieces are ready for the next 70 years. As part of that effort, when I'm listing an item I also build a factually correct story around it, this is both a passion for me, and I want to share this with the new owner, for everyone who buys something from me to know the history and story of that item. As Rob mentioned, I ensure each customer has a great experience, and loves the item they get from me.

I do this for profit, and I do not hide this. For me this is a living, it puts food in my mouth and that of my family.

I am not a 'flipper'. I have never done any of the things that are mentioned above. I have never hoarded items. I have never tried to control the market nor done any of the other rather outlandish and ridiculous accusations made above. The claim that this, and I myself, is morally reprehensible is honestly hurtful, completely incorrect, and quite frankly baseless.

I'm going to leave it at that. And whilst I am only an occasional contributor to this forum, I would rather any further unwelcome feedback directed to my face. I do check in here regularly, and the messages on my instagram are always responded to as fast as possible. I would rather spend my time searching for new items than defending my moral fortitude, so please do excuse me if the above seems in anyway abrupt or misplaced.

Thanks,
Rich
The Major's Tailor

 

[MaydayWei]

@DenimCanvasCamo
Perhaps if you had taken the time to fully understand the arguments made between both @917_k and I, you'd see that your points have already been raised and addressed.
I simply will not be drawn down that rabbit hole again.
You have your opinions, I have mine; if we disagree, so be it.
Good day.

 

[ausreenactor]

I feel like I should jump in here, not through feeling any need to defend myself, but rather, as my name has been dragged through the mud by another member, to provide a definitive counter argument. And many thanks to both Jorge and Rob for your jumping to my defence, both good friends with whom I have shared my passion for collecting for many years.

Firstly, I am a collector. So is Saunders. So is Bob at Vintage Productions and every other dealer going, that's how we all started. Ultimately I buy and sell items partly to build my own collection.

Secondly, I am a dealer. I spend a long time searching for rarer items. I recognise the value in them, and certainly where they have been undervalued. In many cases I spend a long time and a lot of effort and money researching their history, repairing, and restoring. Every item that I have leaves my possession in better condition than that in which it arrived. This is a core part of my business, in ensuring those pieces are ready for the next 70 years. As part of that effort, when I'm listing an item I also build a factually correct story around it, this is both a passion for me, and I want to share this with the new owner, for everyone who buys something from me to know the history and story of that item. As Rob mentioned, I ensure each customer has a great experience, and loves the item they get from me.

I do this for profit, and I do not hide this. For me this is a living, it puts food in my mouth and that of my family.

I am not a 'flipper'. I have never done any of the things that are mentioned above. I have never hoarded items. I have never tried to control the market nor done any of the other rather outlandish and ridiculous accusations made above. The claim that this, and I myself, is morally reprehensible is honestly hurtful, completely incorrect, and quite frankly baseless.

I'm going to leave it at that. And whilst I am only an occasional contributor to this forum, I would rather any further unwelcome feedback directed to my face. I do check in here regularly, and the messages on my instagram are always responded to as fast as possible. I would rather spend my time searching for new items than defending my moral fortitude, so please do excuse me if the above seems in anyway abrupt or misplaced.

Thanks,
Rich
The Major's Tailor

While I didn't jump to your defence. I did sit up straight...really fast.

All is good kind Sir. Embrace the banter. It is an attribute the VLJ.

 

[DenimCanvasCamo]

While I didn't jump to your defence. I did sit up straight...really fast.

All is good kind Sir. Embrace the banter. It is an attribute the VLJ.

Thanks @ausreenactor please don't think me rude in not thanking everyone who jumped in, Rob and Jorge are close friends and happened to be the two I picked (i'm always happy to add to that friends list if you want to drop me a quick IG message!). I'm happy to indulge in friendly banter, and encourage such discourse as I believe it only build a better and stronger community. But questions of my professionalism, my moral standing and my value to the wider collecting community need to be addressed head-on.

 

[ausreenactor]

All good.

I just saw the opportunity for a light-hearted quip...