GoodWear Werber 1402P, Fantastic!!

[airfrogusmc]

That's funny you mentioned orange - that's exactly the color coming through in the photos posted! Anyhow, I'm a big fan of the GW Doniger I've seen in russet goatskin. As far as the horsehide GW jackets I've seen in the flesh and in photos - I see alot of room for improvement - and if anyone can do it - it's John. Just my opinion!

Throwing on my "boring" ELC and jumping on my bike.

Grant

:? :?

Closer in weight, drape, grain and color than anything I've seen by anyone else.

 

[Andrew]

Allen,

I personally do not think the problem is John selling test jackets but buyers not making clear that their jacket is not class A production grade and (as you mentioned) forum members who like to go after the possible flaws...

For me, having a pre-production is part of the fun:
It was cheaper than the final product, is nevertheless really great craftsmanship and I am pretty sure that John puts all his effort even into test jackets...why? Because he wants the final product to be as good as he can make it. And because he will be the one to test the prototypes.

For example, my NoName contract A-2 was one of the first jackets made, nevertheless John was satisfied enough with it to have veterans sign the lining. I made a review on the old VLJ and of course I stated the "pre-production" status.

Is John's personal standard high enough for the final product?
I am personally sure it is and most of the GW owners will be so, too.

Should his prototypes be compared with his final products or those of other makers? Definitely not!
His test jackets, IMHO they beat US Wings, Cooper, US-A, most of AERO or G&B anytime...that is their peer group, not the high end repros like FEW, RMNZ or the new ELC jackets...

I personally think selling the test jackets is a good business decision 'cause most of us who own a prototype will come back for a second (production) jacket. As John has only limited capacities I am kind of lucky that there are guys who do not get crazy about GW...shortens the waiting time

Regards,

Ties

Well said Ties, and you did it in a second laguage!

I agree with all your points. I also felt that my Prototype GW USL was worthy of a bit of personalization so have had it signed by some vets, and recently had the artwork added to the back. Interestingly the Vet who did the work was extremely impressed with the detail and overall original look of the jacket he was painting on which says something about the quality of even these ealy works of John's.

John is the first person to tell you how much he learns from the pre production process so I have no doubt that some are better than others. I did briefly own a test Bronco but that didn't work for me but i'm sure it is for someone else.

I hear what you are saying Allen but I couldn't imagine destroying one of these... :shock: There will always be people who will love them for what they are and I also think they are unique.

 

[Grant]

Hey Allen,
Sorry to disagree with you, but I've never seen an original Dubow with hides as thin as the hides appear on your repro.
Maybe if I saw it in the flesh I'd have a different opinion, but I'm just going by how it wrinkles and drapes in the photos you've posted. Hey, as long as you're happy with it that's all that matters right? After having owned four original Dubows I guess I might be a little picky!

Grant

 

[airfrogusmc]

Hey Allen,
Sorry to disagree with you, but I've never seen an original Dubow with hides as thin as the hides appear on your repro.
Maybe if I saw it in the flesh I'd have a different opinion, but I'm just going by how it wrinkles and drapes in the photos you've posted. Hey, as long as you're happy with it that's all that matters right? After having owned four original Dubows I guess I might be a little picky!

Grant

Its almost the same weight as Pauls 52 maybe a touch lighter and that 52 is a bit heavier than most. I'm sure your opinion would change if you saw it in the flesh. The hide on mine changes thickness in some parts just like some originals ITS AMAZING....

 

[Grant]

That's great Allen. As long as you're happy that's all that matters.
For me, I'll stick with my RMNZ Dubow and few original Dubows I own.

Grant

 

[fedoralover]

That's great Allen. As long as you're happy that's all that matters.
For me, I'll stick with my RMNZ Dubow and few original Dubows I own.
Grant

Sorry to highjacket this thread, but Grant, what would you estimate your original Dubow's leather weight to be? Is the RMNZ the same?

thanks fedoralover

 

[Grant]

Hi Fedora,
Not sure what the average weight would be but they definitely had good quality control as they tended to be rather consistent. Even their goatskin A-2s have nice weight skins. The hides on my RMNZ are very similar to the original.

Speaking of nice horsehide, tonight I had the chance to examine an amazing seal horsehide Bronco owned by one of the forum owners. I've never had the chance to handle an all original (not a re-dye) seal Bronco, complete with brass Talon zip before and it was very cool. The horsehide was a beautiful grainy warm seal color that almost had the heft of a motorcycle jacket. The lining, spec label and knits were in almost mint condition. The real kicker was he recently bought it for well below the price of a GW or Aero repro. Very cool to see a 'made in New York' A-2 back where it was made.

Grant

 

[airfrogusmc]

That's great Allen. As long as you're happy that's all that matters.
For me, I'll stick with my RMNZ Dubow and few original Dubows I own.

Grant

Grant no ones try'n ta get ya to dump your RMNZ. You have from the get go been try'n to find fault in the GW horse Dubow. You started by started the color was wrong. Now the weight. I donno? Its in line with allot of origianls. Most of the other makers have hide that to stiff and to heavy compared to most originals.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Nothin like an original but try and guess what it would get Paul to seperate from an original size 52 Dubow. Could probably buy a couple of RMNZs, an LW and a GW for the price of that original.

 

[Anonymous]

Grant:

you mentioned orange - that's exactly the color coming through in the photos posted! Anyhow, I'm a big fan of the GW Doniger I've seen in russet goatskin. As far as the horsehide GW jackets I've seen in the flesh and in photos - I see alot of room for improvement

"...alot room for improvement" exactly where? "Alot"? First- there is no orange on this leather- the color in the photos must be wrong (I'm colorblind) but I just had my non-color-blind wife check my United which is made of the same leather and she said- "It's brown" worn parts- "Its tannish brown". No orange. I don't see how John's exact copying of jackets can be improved upon "alot"- the GWs are sewn like originals, cut like originals and especially they look originals when worn. What do you want- embossed reddish leather like you get from Eastman- you know- "warhorse"?

 

[Anonymous]

Grant:

The hides on my RMNZ are very similar to the original.

Really? Not too reddish? Not too heavy? Not too smooth? Not too shiny? If the hides are similar that's nice- "similar" is as close as you'll get with RMNZ- I'm not kickin' 'em around from anything but experience- I've owned 2 of their Roughwears, 1 Dubow and 1 Monarch. They're nice jackets but come on!- nowhere even close to being a copy. On their Dubows the collar's not right, the back's too small and most irritatingly the epaulets are too narrow. They look "similar". sorta...

 

[Anonymous]

First- there is no orange on this leather-

Look again.

 

[hacker]

First- there is no orange on this leather-

Look again.

Ummm.....strange :? ....that looks like Jeff........


Hack

 

[Anonymous]

Ummm.....strange :? ....that looks like Jeff....

No, here's the top half - it's Andrew S.

Apologies, merely an effort to distract from this otherwise terribly serious thread.

 

[Grant]

Rotenhan,
Sorry to once again disagree with you but my RMNZ Dubow fits very much like my original Dubows. Also, the horsehide used on my old repro is not shiny, too thick or smooth. I've been told the horsehide RMNZ was using back then was from Horween and has a completely different feel and look compared to the currect hides their using.

I agree that overall John's Dubow reproduction is very close and once he sources a good russet horsehide he'll have a killer reproduction.

Here's a little friendly advice for you - learn to lighten up and accept that some people have opinions that differ from yours.

Allen,
Not sure where you thought anyone was getting me to "dump" my RMNZ Dubow???
If my having a differing opinion from you or anyone else is "having fault" I'm sorry you feel that way. I was just offering up an opinion based on my observations - nothing more. Take or leave it at that.

This thread is now getting totally boring so I will respectfully stop posting here.

Riding off into the sunset in my "embossed, boring" ELC!! lol
Grant

 

[airfrogusmc]

Rotenhan,
Sorry to once again disagree with you but my RMNZ Dubow fits very much like my original Dubows. Also, the horsehide used on my old repro is not shiny, too thick or smooth. I've been told the horsehide RMNZ was using back then was from Horween and has a completely different feel and look compared to the currect hides their using.

I agree that overall John's Dubow reproduction is very close and once he sources a good russet horsehide he'll have a killer reproduction.

Here's a little friendly advice for you - learn to lighten up and accept that some people have opinions that differ from yours.

Allen,
Not sure where you thought anyone was getting me to "dump" my RMNZ Dubow???
If my having a differing opinion from you or anyone else is "having fault" I'm sorry you feel that way. I was just offering up an opinion based on my observations - nothing more. Take or leave it at that.

This thread is now getting totally boring so I will respectfully stop posting here.

Riding off into the sunset in my "embossed, boring" ELC!! lol
Grant

I donno didn't you say you were stick'n with your RMNZ. Maybe I took it wrong but to me that means your not planning on dump'n it. I didn't think you should do anything else. You did say the color wasn't right on Johns Dubow (I donno, looks pretty close to Pauls originals to me) and we all know how hard it is to tell weight from photos but you can get a feel your right but there are plenty of examples in photos that the drape is pretty dead on to some originals. If you look the two front panels on my jacket they are VERY GRAINY and even on originals those very grainy areas tend to be VERY RELAXED and somewhat thinner than other areas that are not so grainy and that is certainly the case with this jacket. But you did make those statements and you've never seen my jacket only photos. I just don't understand why the out of the box attack on both color and weight without seeing the jacket in person. Paul has a much different opinion of JCs Dubow than you do but he's has one (in the flesh).

So you made a statement about color and I just rebutted with a photo. It doesn't mean you don't have the right to your opinion but you also must realize when you make a statement others have the right to agree or disagree to. And you were wrong on the color and there are also plenty of examples of originals with similar weight as the weight of the vermont espresso. It looked to me like you were just looking for fault in the GW Dubow.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Example...
You can see how much more RELAXED the real grainy hide is as opposed to the not as grainy hide. Check the way it gathers by the knits both at the cuff and the waist band. This effects the way the jacket drapes and if you notice my jacket has almost the entire front made of this VERY RELAXED GRAINY hide which I love. Its (for the most part) almost the same weight as the not so grainy but does get a bit thinner in real grainy areas but just like originals but Grant knows all this. Don't know why these are loading so slow but gotta run. I'll fix it later.

 

[Swing]

Allen's jacket looks great, though the leather is way too wrinkly for my tastes (I prefer that a jacket for the most part be smooth, with small sections of heavy grain). I think the Werber that started this thread looks pretty good too even with quick wear, and when John get's his spray finish perfected (give him credit for having the balls to take another leap and do his own dying and finishing) he's going to have quite the product.

~Swing

 

[Anonymous]

Grant:

Here's a little friendly advice for you - learn to lighten up and accept that some people have opinions that differ from yours.

I'm light- I'm light! I LIKE to argue! I'm happy ARGUING! Think My Cousin Vinny-especially living in NYC you should understand that!

 

[airfrogusmc]

Allen's jacket looks great, though the leather is way too wrinkly for my tastes (I prefer that a jacket for the most part be smooth, with small sections of heavy grain). I think the Werber that started this thread looks pretty good too even with quick wear, and when John get's his spray finish perfected (give him credit for having the balls to take another leap and do his own dying and finishing) he's going to have quite the product.

~Swing

I asked for the nasty stuff John had and not for just the usual places (pockets, sleeves, epaulets). I think ELC Werber is a real nice jacket as I do the the RMNZ Dubow.

I like the fact I tried on an original that fit PERFECT and got an almost exact copy (only mine is actually grainier on my request) but still its not outta line with allot of originals.