Educate me on A-2 leather finishes

[Banzai]

For the longest time I assumed that aniline/semi aniline finishes were the best, because it seems like that's what all the good quality makers say they use. (The bad ones don't really say anything.) Then, in a recent thread about ELC marketing, it came up that period accuracy would be chrome tanning with a pigment finish.

Now, obviously chrome tanning is probably out for a number of reasonable regulatory concerns. But I don't really understand the difference on the finishes.

Was pigment a cheap wartime necessity, or perhaps a requirement for wartime durability? Some googling reveals that it is a more durable finish. If it was anything more than a cheap necessity, then why aren't pigment finishes more desirable? I found that Buzz Rickson makes one that they specify as pigment finished - their 21996 Aero copy with the red knits. That one seems to be their "flagship" model as well, on the first page of their catalog with the full-page artsy photo. Beyond that though, no one that I've found. You could probably ask Aero to make a pigment finish, with their plentiful leather options.

Then, perusing different sites, I saw that Five Star offers a "pull up" horsehide. A lot of googling, both on the wider internet and this forum, didn't yield a lot of information about the desirability of pull up for a jacket like an A-2. In fact, most pull-up leather references were tied to furniture. Buzz Rickson makes a Werber copy, their 2951P, that says it's vegetable tanned with a "wax hand finish", which sounds kind of like pull up as well. Given that it's their most expensive model, if that is "pull-up" it can't be that bad.

And, of course, every good maker advertises vegetable tanned with aniline or semi-aniline finish.

Botton line...I'm now thoroughly confused why aniline/semi-aniline is better than pigment, and also where pull-up/wax fits into the mix.

 

[Camel24hrs]

For the longest time I assumed that aniline/semi aniline finishes were the best, because it seems like that's what all the good quality makers say they use. (The bad ones don't really say anything.) Then, in a recent thread about ELC marketing, it came up that period accuracy would be chrome tanning with a pigment finish.

Now, obviously chrome tanning is probably out for a number of reasonable regulatory concerns. But I don't really understand the difference on the finishes.

Was pigment a cheap wartime necessity, or perhaps a requirement for wartime durability? Some googling reveals that it is a more durable finish. If it was anything more than a cheap necessity, then why aren't pigment finishes more desirable? I found that Buzz Rickson makes one that they specify as pigment finished - their 21996 Aero copy with the red knits. That one seems to be their "flagship" model as well, on the first page of their catalog with the full-page artsy photo. Beyond that though, no one that I've found. You could probably ask Aero to make a pigment finish, with their plentiful leather options.

Then, perusing different sites, I saw that Five Star offers a "pull up" horsehide. A lot of googling, both on the wider internet and this forum, didn't yield a lot of information about the desirability of pull up for a jacket like an A-2. In fact, most pull-up leather references were tied to furniture. Buzz Rickson makes a Werber copy, their 2951P, that says it's vegetable tanned with a "wax hand finish", which sounds kind of like pull up as well. Given that it's their most expensive model, if that is "pull-up" it can't be that bad.

And, of course, every good maker advertises vegetable tanned with aniline or semi-aniline finish.

Botton line...I'm now thoroughly confused why aniline/semi-aniline is better than pigment, and also where pull-up/wax fits into the mix.

For starters vegetable tanned leather takes about 2 to 3 months to do. Chrome tanned takes a couple of days. So chrome is a lot cheaper to produce than vegetable tanned.

As for as the qualities vegetable tanned leather will absorb water and chrome tanned is just about water proof. So water runs off the chrome tanned leather and it soaks into vegetable tanned.
Vegetable tanned leather tends to be stiff it’s used a lot in shoes, purses, saddles and belts. It takes a lot of time for it to soften up. Chrome tanned leather is very flexible and has a soft feel compared to vegetable tanned. So it tends to drape naturally when being worn.
There are more that I just can’t think of at the moment.

As far as pull up leather I can’t really comment on that except that it was not used in original A2s.

I think the military went with Chrome tanning because it was quicker and cheaper. And the quality of it being water resistant. They needed jackets in a big hurry, they needed the water resistant properties and as cheaply as possible.

I think big companies that use Vegetable tanned leather in their A2s do so because vegetable tanned leather can be stunningly beautiful to look at. And that comes at a cost that is passed on to the consumer. It’s a business decision. The want to produce A2s that are fashion statements. That is their market.

 

[B-Man2]

Also
I think that Chrome Tanning in the US is been discontinued due to environmental laws

 

[Banzai]

I get the chrome/vegetable thing…I’m not addressing that due to the reasonable regulations on it. I’m more asking about the finishes. Either chrome or vegetable can be finished in aniline/semi-aniline, pigment, or pull up.

So, accepting the fact that vegetable tanned is pretty much the only viable tanning choice, why aren’t repro A-2s at least all pigment finished?

 

[B-Man2]

I get the chrome/vegetable thing…I’m not addressing that due to the reasonable regulations on it. I’m more asking about the finishes. Either chrome or vegetable can be finished in aniline/semi-aniline, pigment, or pull up.

So, accepting the fact that vegetable tanned is pretty much the only viable tanning choice, why aren’t repro A-2s at least all pigment finished?

I think it comes down to … what it always comes down to …. Money and profit margin.

 

[Camel24hrs]

Also
I think that Chrome Tanning in the US is been discontinued due to environmental laws

It has not been discontinued I believe. But it is heavily regulated for sure out of environmental concerns. I’ll have to look to be sure. Most leather produced today is chrome tanned.

 

[Micawber]

Maybe this or one of the several other threads on this matter could be made sticky in order that it can be referred and added to if the need arises.

 

[mulceber]

Then, perusing different sites, I saw that Five Star offers a "pull up" horsehide. A lot of googling, both on the wider internet and this forum, didn't yield a lot of information about the desirability of pull up for a jacket like an A-2. In fact, most pull-up leather references were tied to furniture. Buzz Rickson makes a Werber copy, their 2951P, that says it's vegetable tanned with a "wax hand finish", which sounds kind of like pull up as well. Given that it's their most expensive model, if that is "pull-up" it can't be that bad.

So, pull-up leather is a leather that has been stuffed with hot waxes and oils as part of the tanning process. As a result, if you ever stretch it, sharply bend it, or anything like that, the oils move around. This is known as the pull-up effect. The most famous pull-up leather in the world (the original, in fact) is Horween's Chromexcel. While you absolutely CAN make leather jackets out of it, nobody did that back in the day. It's very much a modern thing. Pull-up is different from a wax hand finish (as far as I can tell), and they're both worlds apart form pigment finish, which is a method of dyeing: the dye is applied like a spray paint and forms a coat on the surface of the leather.

 

[Banzai]

I think it comes down to … what it always comes down to …. Money and profit margin.

I'll lead with the admission that I don't know anything about any of this, so I'm just guessing here based on tenuously connected knowledge of other crafts. In this case, wood.

So, in my mind, pigment finish is kind of like paint on wood, where aniline is like a varnish. In woodworking, paint is typically the cheaper option, due to simplicity and opacity. One coat could even do it with some paints. A good varnish requires multiple coat buildup to get the translucence just right. One coat doesn't come close. Varnish at the right layering also shows off the grain of wood, (as well as any flaws). But a high quality hand applied varnish is more expensive in wood than a paint or lacquer.

It might be completely opposite in leather. But I think that pigment (paint/lacquer) would be both cheaper, and more authentic, than aniline. And maybe it's just that, like with a good wood varnish, aniline simply looks better, and some authenticity is sacrificed by the very good makers for what looks far superior.

Next time I go to Japan, I'm going to try to take a look at a Buzz Rickson's pigment finish in person.

 

[Banzai]

So, pull-up leather is a leather that has been stuffed with hot waxes and oils as part of the tanning process. As a result, if you ever stretch it, sharply bend it, or anything like that, the oils move around. This is known as the pull-up effect. The most famous pull-up leather in the world (the original, in fact) is Horween's Chromexcel. While you absolutely CAN make leather jackets out of it, nobody did that back in the day. It's very much a modern thing. Pull-up is different from a wax hand finish (as far as I can tell), and they're both worlds apart form pigment finish, which is a method of dyeing: the dye is applied like a spray paint and forms a coat on the surface of the leather.

Interesting. It looks like Aero leather does a lot of Chromexcel.

 

[Camel24hrs]

I get the chrome/vegetable thing…I’m not addressing that due to the reasonable regulations on it. I’m more asking about the finishes. Either chrome or vegetable can be finished in aniline/semi-aniline, pigment, or pull up.

So, accepting the fact that vegetable tanned is pretty much the only viable tanning choice, why aren’t repro A-2s at least all pigment finished?

WW2 A-2 tanning

There are two US tanneries still producing predominately veg tanned leather exclusively. Wickett and Craig in Pennsylvania. (I actually visited the tannery) The other is Herman Oak. My opinion on why repro makes use veg tanned a lot is because it patina’s and wears a lot differently. Depending...

www.vintageleatherjackets.org