Eastman / Aero price gouging on overseas sales

[buzzthetower]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

and, even more so GW, make more like 3 times their actual cost to produce an A-2

I can't wait to receive that amount. It sure ain't what I get now. I'm wondering if you know what the cost of parts are from higher-end tanneries, zippers, makers, and labor. I don't have a clue as to what ELC or Real McCoy's or Buzz Rickson is making, but I'll tell you now that I certainly don't make that. The cost of leather/parts is insane.

Respectfully,
John @ Good Wear Leather

 

[ButteMT61]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

...and, even more so GW, make more like 3 times their actual cost to produce an A-2

I'd have to challenge that. An operation like GW buys a fraction of the hides that ELC or Aero or others do. They certainly pay more for parts. If any business is hiding costs rather than raising prices to get by, I'll pass on their goods. And it sounds like that's what some are doing with the VAT and foreigners.

 

[SuinBruin]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

The questions raised are valid and the topic is interesting and worthy of discussion. I'm not trying to defend ELC per se, but I am trying to present a fully-illuminated alternate perspective to what is being bandied about.

...

I also sent an e-mail to HPA to check if they carried all ELC items and they replied, saying the only ELC items not carried are those items ELC will not wholesale: Elite-unit items, storage boxes, coasters, etc. They do carry all of the sweaters, which was how this thread got started, I think, so it would seem they carry 98% or more of ELC goods.

...

I don't give a rat's ass where you make your purchases: Aero, ELC, BK, GW, HPA, Cockpit, etc. But I do like trying to keep a balanced perspective on that which we discuss, and I like seeing facts without much bias or personal agenda slipped in.

Saunders

I agree, it is a topic worth discussing. All of what you say is possible, though not plausible. What gets me (and I think Jeff too, though I can't speak for him) is ELC's lack of candor in addressing the VAT issue. The language that Gary has used seems to me (someone who is paid to parse and use words) deliberately ambiguous and confusing. Instead of directly acknowledging the markup, he talks about VAT not being added to US sales, implying that it is added to EU sales instead of already being incorporated in the advertised price.

I'm sure there are additional costs in doing overseas business, including time spent filling out paperwork. Do I believe for a second that those costs equal 20% of the pretax retail price (not wholesale or net cost, mind you)? No f-ing way. If it takes Eastman 20-30 minutes to fill out overseas shipping paperwork (a very generous estimate -- it's probably automated/computerized to a large extent), then add in an extra overseas handling fee of, say, ten pounds. That's fifteen to twenty bucks for a half hour of labor -- pretty fair, all things considered, and well short of a 20% add-on.

As for the sweater, that's my own personal preference and not Jeff's, who was looking at buying a jacket. But the HPA site does not have the USN seaman's sweater on it that I can find, which is why I said that not all ELC items are available via HPA. If that is incorrect, then I apologize for the mistake. We should all be careful about making assumptions (like Good Wear's margins, for instance). I am basing my position on (1) my experience in buying other items from the UK and having VAT deducted from the price, (2) the lack of VAT disclosure on ELC's web site, (3) ELC's acknowledged practice of not discounting VAT for non-EU sales, and (4) Gary's communications on the issue as relayed by Jeff. If I'm missing something or am mistaken in any way I would welcome being corrected by anyone with better information.

I have never dealt with ELC before this and I have no axe to grind with respect to them or their products. But I do not like shady business practices and, in my opinion, including an undisclosed 20% markup counts as such. I would say the same for any other vendor, whether based in the US or overseas.

 

[Jeff M]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

I agree, it is a topic worth discussing. All of what you say is possible, though not plausible. What gets me (and I think Jeff too, though I can't speak for him) is ELC's lack of candor in addressing the VAT issue. The language that Gary has used seems to me (someone who is paid to parse and use words) deliberately ambiguous and confusing. Instead of directly acknowledging the markup, he talks about VAT not being added to US sales, implying that it is added to EU sales instead of already being incorporated in the advertised price.

.....

Yep.
It's one thing to explain why you are charging me a higher base price than a UK buyer.
It's another to piss on my leg and try to tell me it's raining.

 

[Persimmon]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

So it looks like Eastman and Aero have for years been charging their non European overseas customers 17.5% (the old Vat rate) and now 20% (new Vat rate) and happily getting away with it.

Both Eastman and Aero are in the business to make money remember. They have employees and fixed costs (including expensive leather etc ) to pay for and are not a charity
.
As a business they can charge what they want (still if it can be shown that they colluded together on this issue that is the beginnings of a cartel)... and we as customers can choose to accept it or not.

Certainly the Hat Lounge has much more Aero customers than probably here now so it will be interesting to see what pick up occurs from the Forum members there.

Its pretty clear that both Eastman and Aero believe that they can rip off these overseas customers and increase their profit margin ( I can almost hear them say - hell they are only dumb fat rich Americans so lets screw them for more money. We have a great brand !!)

I wonder for how long (and especially as this comes not long after Aero's last fiasco )
Another case for Cloudy Lemonade to solve at Aero perhaps ?

As for ELC, Gary Eastman's comments are shocking and shows the value he has to the members of this Forum.
His lack of proprer reply is ....deafening

Still he can keep selling to the Japanese customers with lots of dosh and they probably don't read English and will never know how much they are being ripped off so all is well !!!

 

[nogbat]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

well said..ive had some of that elc arrogance never again ...

 

[ausreenactor]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

I think applying the non-UK buyer price comparison could be UK wide. In theory any item (Soldier Of Fortune Battle Dress & Insignia, Dr. Martens Shoes, Man Utd Merchandise) should be cheaper if purchased from another country. If you ask you will be refused in a polite manner across the board, without exception. You either buy the item and pay the shipping, or you buy something or somewhere else.

And I am sure that Aero, ELC and Chinese sweat shops employ the economy of scale methodology. There is only one John Chapman, and his hourly rate went up around 35% when his GW Executive went to three members. It would HAVE TO cost GW more per jacket for production.

Just my opinion... as a buyer from the UK at the 'inflated' rate for well over a decade...

Couchy

 

[m444uk]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

I think applying the non-UK buyer price comparison could be UK wide. In theory any item (Soldier Of Fortune Battle Dress & Insignia, Dr. Martens Shoes, Man Utd Merchandise) should be cheaper if purchased from another country. If you ask you will be refused in a polite manner across the board, without exception. You either buy the item and pay the shipping, or you buy something or somewhere else.

And I am sure that Aero, ELC and Chinese sweat shops employ the economy of scale methodology. There is only one John Chapman, and his hourly rate went up around 35% when his GW Executive went to three members. It would HAVE TO cost GW more per jacket for production.

Just my opinion... as a buyer from the UK at the 'inflated' rate for well over a decade...

Couchy

I've bought quite a bit of stuff over the years from EU countries. If I give them my GB VAT number and ask for the VAT to be deducted as a business to business sale they sometimes refuse. This is often because they are to small to need to be VAT registered or the profits involved are to small to bother. It's not normally a deal breaker though, there are many reasons for making a purchasing decision.

As for Goodwear, surely the division of labour means more efficiency hence lower unit costs and increased profit ?
Employing a specialist cutter should be more efficient than one man moving from task to task.

 

[Persimmon]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

I thought I would post this as I seems to some Forum members that I am having a go against Aero, Eastman and the British economy.
My reply to Adam is my thoughts and if I have upset him or others that was not the intension I can assure you

Hi Adam
I am British and am happy to pay a price for any item advertised, be it jackets, or a dishwasher if I accept it to be good value.
I am a business man and sell items to the US, Canada and Australia etc and never charge VAT on those goods.
Partly because the end user knows I cannot charge it to them and frankly its unfair as my costs are my costs unless I want to overcharge and make a hefty profit margin on the item(s). I choose not to and hope to drive further sales by being competitive in a tough market (which one isn't at the moment !!)

If I was a US citizen I would be hacked off that I am being overcharged by Eastman and or Aero now knowing what I know.
I am not trying to do damage to Aero or Eastman overseas. I am highlighting a policy that I think is unfair.

Perhaps one or both of these companies might find their sales increase if there prices were cheaper.
Not quite the old days of Tesco - pile them high and sell them cheap - but hopefully it will stimulate revenue rather than the reverse.

You seem to be suggesting that I should say nothing as I am not helping the Britsh economy by getting this extra tax from unsuspecting foreign nationals.
Lets face it, the extra money in this case is going not to the Government but to the owners of two Leather Jacket companies.
As for supporting a policy of letting the unsuspecting foreign nationals not get their reclaimed VAT I think that's is a poor attitute especially as these foreign nationals (visitors- tourists ) are bringing in healthy revenue to the country in many forms.
Still I may be way of kilter here so I will post your message and my reply if thats OK.
Alan


Original PM removed at PMer's request - Bill French

 

[Jeff M]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

I thought I would post this as I seems to some Forum members that I am having a go against Aero, Eastman and the British economy.
My reply to Adam is my thoughts and if I have upset him or others that was not the intension I can assure you

Hi Adam
I am British and am happy to pay a price for any item advertised, be it jackets, or a dishwasher if I accept it to be good value.
I am a business man and sell items to the US, Canada and Australia etc and never charge VAT on those goods.
Partly because the end user knows I cannot charge it to them and frankly its unfair as my costs are my costs unless I want to overcharge and make a hefty profit margin on the item(s). I choose not to and hope to drive further sales by being competitive in a tough market (which one isn't at the moment !!)

If I was a US citizen I would be hacked off that I am being overcharged by Eastman and or Aero now knowing what I know.
I am not trying to do damage to Aero or Eastman overseas. I am highlighting a policy that I think is unfair.

Perhaps one or both of these companies might find their sales increase if there prices were cheaper.
Not quite the old days of Tesco - pile them high and sell them cheap - but hopefully it will stimulate revenue rather than the reverse.

You seem to be suggesting that I should say nothing as I am not helping the Britsh economy by getting this extra tax from unsuspecting foreign nationals.
Lets face it, the extra money in this case is going not to the Government but to the owners of two Leather Jacket companies.
As for supporting a policy of letting the unsuspecting foreign nationals not get their reclaimed VAT I think that's is a poor attitute especially as these foreign nationals (visitors- tourists ) are bringing in healthy revenue to the country in many forms.
Still I may be way of kilter here so I will post your message and my reply if thats OK.
Alan

Original PM removed at PMer's request - Bill French

Amazing.

I am amazed there are people out there who believe hiding the VAT issue behind a curtain of ignorance on the part of the buyer or misdirection on the part of the seller is somehow morally defensible. It's thinking like that that has gotten the world into the financial mess we are currently in.
If that is they way somebody runs their business, I want nothing to do with them.
Tell me the truth. Put it out there so there is no confusion. Let me make up my own mind.
In most situations I am willing to pay more if I trust the seller is being up front and honest with me.
This, along with the quality of the product, is another attraction of GW for me.

 

[SuinBruin]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

Original PM removed at PMer's request - Bill French

I don't mind paying sales or use taxes when I'm in a foreign country, since I am enjoying the use of the infrastructure and institutions that those taxes pay for (roads, police, etc.). I lived in England for 3 months in college and certainly wasn't looking to get back the VAT I'd paid when I left.

But I do very much mind being gouged an extra undisclosed 20% surcharge that goes to the seller as pure profit. It's one thing when you're buying a CD or book -- it's quite another when you're buying a high end jacket that costs about a thousand dollars.

Thanks for telling it straight, Alan.

 

[m444uk]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

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[ButteMT61]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

Wow, what a douche. I, like others, don't mind paying taxes, etc. when I know about them. When we went to Europe last fall, we did not reclaim the VAT's charged on the way out. I did that of my own choosing, not someone else's. This is a sad situation.
Could someone that fully understands this post it up in the Hat Place™ too? I get the gist of it, but I don't feel confident enough in my knowledge to post the details.
As to posting up the PM, I'm generally in agreement with that, however this is not of a personal nature but rather a business question and it should be out there for all to see. Point well made though.

 

[bfrench]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

if you don't like it then don't buy it from ELC!
no need to cry loud here! :lol:
buy the one you like!
Gary and Alan are nice guys just like John!

Well said and the point seems to have been extremely well made, too.

 

[Jeff M]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

Removed my comment.

 

[ButteMT61]

Re: Eastman price gouging on overseas sales

if you don't like it then don't buy it from ELC!
no need to cry loud here! :lol:
buy the one you like!
Gary and Alan are nice guys just like John!

What about what we have been saying do you not understand?
It isn't the extra 20% as much as it is the attempts at misdirection when directly asked about it.

Maybe VLJ gets 5% of the 20% :mrgreen:

 

[m444uk]

Do Eastman give discounts at airshows or do they stick to web pricing ? In other words, is it possible to negotiate a lower price in any way. In general luxury goods have high margins so normally there is a bit of room to manoeuvre. I've never bought directly from them. I tend to wait for retailers to have annual sales.

 

[nogbat]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Roughwear]

When I have bought from Eastman at Duxford I have been given a small discount and I know others have too. I suspect it is partly because they have not had to post the jackets off.

 

[saunders]

Perhaps my view is too simple, but some of this bloviating seems to be about wishing for something that doesn't exist. Some have reasoned themselves into a corner, theoretically fixating on a notion that one can actually get a new ELC jacket for less money somewhere in the world, but, it seems, you can't because this isn't a theoretical world (or, maybe it is and we don't really exist). :lol: ELC sells to all at one price regardless of purchasing origin, ELC retailers charge what they charge, which is, in most cases, close to ELC pricing unless the item is on sale or unless the retailer is in Japan (where costs are significantly higher). If past issues are indicative of the future, given enough time, this whole thread will die, most people will move on and ELC will still have one price, and that will be the price perceived as the MSRP by most. As TCWU said, don't buy from ELC if you don't like it.

This, too, shall pass ...