Early A-2 ID?

[zoomer]

Another unusually good early pic. Col. John Howard, Brig. Gen. Westover, and Lt. Col. Arnold at a luncheon given by the LA Chamber of Commerce at the Hotel Biltmore, May 17, 1933. Note Hap's button-tab collar, which appears to be in lieu of snap-downs.

 

[Roughwear]

Great photo! Two SATs and a Werber, or they might all be Werbers. Jackets from the Werber 32-6225 order most likely had button pockets. 600 were made and 1660 SATs so it is likely that not all the A-2s with buttons in early photos were SATs.

 

[Roughwear]

The one pictured at right has a locking pin that fits in the teeth. (ELC's Hookless replicates this but their pull is too loosely attached for it to work very well.)
The one at left (circled) I have never seen so don't know.
. View attachment 5995

I have used the very same zip pull on my Werber. It has a locking pin like the one on the right in your picture. It has Hookless beneath the leather pull.

 

[Lorenzo_l]

Another unusually good early pic. Col. John Howard, Brig. Gen. Westover, and Lt. Col. Arnold at a luncheon given by the LA Chamber of Commerce at the Hotel Biltmore, May 17, 1933. Note Hap's button-tab collar, which appears to be in lieu of snap-downs. View attachment 6003

Great photo, Zoomer, thanks for posting. Interesting to see the mix of buttoned pockets SATs and an early contract Werber. Notice the rather short sleeves on Gen Arnold's SAT.

 

[Roughwear]

There's no documentation the first Werber contract had button pockets I'd still bet my money they're SAT's. Again very cool picture!
It's a shame JC stopped offering his SAT reproduction!

I have just come across this from an earlier thread. "From the original documents used for clearance of A-2 specification, 94-3040, there are three contracts listed as already procured, and the spec. states in section III "All button holes shall be leather faced." So it implies the first Werber contract had buttoned pockets.

 

[2BM2K]

Fantastic photo, thanks for sharing.

The jacket Arnold is wearing maybe the Werber 32-6225 contract.

 

[Roughwear]

That is my guess. The pockets are smaller than those found on the SAT and similar in size to those on the Werber 1729 worn by Westover. SAT pocket flaps were more gently curved.

 

[Pilot]

....and all with a loose fit....
Thx for sharing all these photos and info...
This is what the forum should be and not the spitting around like on other threads here..
Keep it great and with high informative value/spirits..

 

[Roughwear]

I agree Pilot. This A2 historical detective work is one of the most interesting aspects of the forum.

 

[Pilot]

I agree Pilot. This A2 historical detective work is one of the most interesting aspects of the forum.

Wow! thx...

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Most factories carry a couple of years worth of zippers in stock at least.

Aero have still got plenty Talons made and bought in the 1980s, nothing wrong with them at all, we use them every now and again and if we get the chance to use them on a contract order we do.
Same would have been the thinking back in the early 30's. Who would give a toss if the zipper was marked Talon or Hookless, they'd have used what they had. I can't see Talon "reclaiming" all the old Hookless branded zippers
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't this during the depression?

 

[Skyhawk]

Another unusually good early pic. Col. John Howard, Brig. Gen. Westover, and Lt. Col. Arnold at a luncheon given by the LA Chamber of Commerce at the Hotel Biltmore, May 17, 1933. Note Hap's button-tab collar, which appears to be in lieu of snap-downs. View attachment 6003

Interesting! It is hard to tell but the loop on the right looks different than the buttoned up one on the left. Could be just prospective.

I have never seen buttons instead of snaps before. Could this be one of the fabled, 1 of 25, of the Goldsmith jackets?

Edit: Upon blowing up the picture and zooming in, I can see that the loop on the left is there, it is just hard to see when buttoned and blends in with the collar edge.

Also the collar design is different than the Werber in the middle.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Looks like it might well be one of the 25

Double top stitch on pocket not seen this before

 

[Roughwear]

Yes, it could well be a Goldsmith jacket, but more likely to be a first contract Werber. I have not seen this method of keeping the collar up before on an A-2.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Yes, it could well be a Goldsmith jacket. I have not seen this method of keeping the collar points down before on an A-2.

nor on any Civvy Jacket that I've seen, not in the form of a loop (A-1 ish) anyway

 

[MikeyB-17]

It looks more to me like a means to fasten the collar when turned up, in a similar fashion to a G-1. It also appears to be an integral part of the collar, not stitched on later, so it was probably designed like that. There appears to be a hook on the left too.

 

[2BM2K]

There is a button attached to the underside of right side collar. Hence the loop can be used to fasten the collar when
in the up position.

 

[Skyhawk]

It looks more to me like a means to fasten the collar when turned up, in a similar fashion to a G-1. It also appears to be an integral part of the collar, not stitched on later, so it was probably designed like that. There appears to be a hook on the left too.

Yes I believe you are correct! I had not looked at it that way. Double collar closure, hook and button.

 

[Roughwear]

Yes looking closely I agree-unique on an A-2.

 

[zoomer]

Button left (Hap’s right), tab opposite.

This doohickey has a Werber look - their 36-1112P had a snap tab, but it was for the neck closure. (I’ll try and find a pic - the one I saw was a GW repop, probably on JC’s site.)

Hap’s pockets are smallish and buttoned (like the suspected Goldsmith), but widely spaced (unlike the suspected Goldsmith). Wish we could see the waistband and get a good look at the epps, or lack of epps.

I say Werber, and if Werber, it would be 32-6225.