Discussion: “A Better Fighting Garment…” - A Beginner’s Guide to the US Navy’s WWII-era and later Intermediate Flight Jackets

[mulceber]

Huh, interesting, because if you look at the 4th picture FlyWright posted, you can see the stencil off to the side. It's possible though that the owner added the stencil himself. @FlyWright, could you post a picture of the whole back of the collar?

 

[FlyWright]

Here's the back stencil. It looks added at some point does it not?

 

[mulceber]

Yeah, it looks bigger than most USN stencils, and it looks like it was painted by hand. Thanks for showing us the pic.

 

[B-Man2]

Dave
Just drop the mic and walk away !
The man is truly a Wizard when it comes to USN jackets .

 

[FlyWright]

Coming upon this site was beyond informative! It was white light illumination! Thanks to all who constructed such a solid reference! Looking forward to the vintage journey.
Gil

 

[Lord Flashheart]

Thank you for sharing Gil.

There's some really useful detail here that you've shared and with that back story and artwork on a private purchase jacket just goes to show what you can come across and how confusing it can be.

As Burt says Dave is our resident Navy Wizard and leaves the rest of us mortals in the shade!

 

[FlyWright]

Very nice to begin making everyone's acquaintance. Well, I have another mystery one that I would like to share as soon as I get some photos together. I believe its and early "60s 7823C with an interesting squadron patch from Marine Observation VMO 6. Very hard to read the tag but I think its a Ralph Edwards. It also has a painting on the back. Will check in soon!

 

[CombatWombat]

11. MIL-J-7823D (WP) [1967 - 1970]
The 7823D (WP) is a controversial specification. Starting in 1967, it was produced until 1970. For 1967 - mid 1969, the 7823D (WP) specification was made from USN chrome-tanned seal brown goatskin with real mouton fur collars. However, sometime in mid 1969, the 7823D specification was amended to allow for faux mouton collars (80% Dynel, 20% cotton) and cowhide to be used instead. However, all 7823Ds retained double-ply no rib rack 100% wool knits. The possible combinations for 7823D G-1s are thus as follows: goatskin with real mouton, goatskin with Dynel collar, or cowhide with Dynel. Surprisingly, however, no cowhide and real mouton versions have been documented.

SPECIFICATION MIL-J-7823D (WP)	Contract dates	Comments
SPEC.MIL-J-7823D (WEP) RALPH EDWARDS SPRTSWEAR, INC. CONTRACT NO. DSA-1-5366	1966
SPEC.MIL-J-7823D (WEP) GREGORY SPORTSWEAR, INC. CONTRACT NO. DSA-100-67-C-3928	1967	see this thread
MIL-J-7823D (WP) THE MARTIN LANE CO., INC. DSA 100-68-C-0099	1968
MIL-J-7823D (WP) STAR SPORTSWEAR MFG. CORP. DSA 100-68-C-0759	1968
MIL-J-7823D (WP) BRILL BROS., INC. DSA 100-68-C-1805	1968	see this thread
MIL-J-7823D (WP) THE MARTIN LANE CO., INC. DSA 100-69-C-1545	1969
MIL-J-7823D(WP) BRILL BROS., INC. DSA 100-70-C-0484	1970
MIL-J-7823D(WP) STAR SPORTSWEAR MFG. CORP. DSA100-70-C-0483	1970
MIL-J-7823D(WP) STAR SPORTSWEAR MFG. CORP. DSA 100-70-C-0475	1970

MIL-J-7823D(WP) STAR SPORTSWEAR MFG.CO. DSA100-71-C-0535

1971

SPEC.MIL-J-7823D (WEP) GREGORY SPORTSWEAR, INC. CONTRACT NO. DSA-100-67-C-3928, courtesy of @Jorgeenriqueaguilera and courtesy of @mulceber (for purposes of collar fade comparison)
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Looks like I've got a 1968 Brill Bros G1 from the fantastic information section you guys have put together......now to find wrist knits to go on it .....

 

[FlyWright]

IRVIN B. FOSTER SPORTSWEAR CO. CONTRACT NO. DSA-1-8826 courtesy of @Jorgeenriqueaguilera

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Very nice to begin making everyone's acquaintance. Well, I have another mystery one that I would like to share as soon as I get some photos together. I believe its and early "60s 7823C with an interesting squadron patch from Marine Observation VMO 6. Very hard to read the tag but I think its a Ralph Edwards. It also has a painting on the back.

Hope I'm posting this in the correct spot. I mentioned earlier that I had what I thought was a 7823 C jacket from the early 60s. I'm not sure as the tag is hard to read. Maybe Ralph Edwards? The jacket is from VMO 6, 1st Marine Division. The patch and painting on back harken to a period before Vietnam, Korea, WWII perhaps?. Painting shows a lizard or dragon encircling the Yellow Sea area near Korea/China. Waist knit looks to be a replacement. Period of jacket does not compute with art. Anyone have any ideas? It's another odd one in my collection.

 

[tda003]

What you have is a Ralph Edwards. It is a MIL--J-7823D. The contract appears to be DSA-5366. That contract was awarded in 1966 The specs then required a mouton collard and goatskin leather. If you look in this thread in that area, you'll find a wealth of info.

 

[FlyWright]

What you have is a Ralph Edwards. It is a MIL--J-7823D. The contract appears to be DSA-5366. That contract was awarded in 1966 The specs then required a mouton collard and goatskin leather. If you look in this thread in that area, you'll find a wealth of info.

Thank you! I'll check the thread for more info!

 

[B-Man2]

Today after I posted the new size 48 Irvin B Foster I just received , I noticed what I thought was a wonky war time production flaw in this mint G-1 jacket. When I put the jacket on the zipper box started about 2 inches up from the bottom of the jacket . When I zipped the jacket up it left a gap at the bottom of the zipper to the end of the jacket . See below

Thinking that this was one of those wonky wartime flaws that we discuss from time to time, I texted Jan (Mulceber) and told him about this issue. After a few minutes Jan had reviewed this thread and came back with a photo of another Irvin B foster with the same wonky issue. See photo from post #70 below .

So what Jan and I are now wondering is ..
Is this a new found trait or a “tell” for an Irvin B Forster G-1 jacket ? It this typical for all IBF G-1s ? Can we now say that this is a manufacturing trait of this contract and use this as a possible means of identifying other unknown or missing label G-1 IBF jackets ? If you have an Irving B Foster G-1 please post a photo of the closed zipper box to see if it also has the same wonky appearance as these two jackets . Thanks for your time .

 

[mulceber]

I went through and checked all the photos we had of IBF contracts, and...nothing. The other photo we had a of an IBF 7823B (same contract as Burt's) has that same, weird zipper configuration, but the zippers on all IBF 7823A and 7823C jackets that we had (as well as the earlier LW Foster 7823s) were normal. So is the other IBF 7823B contract.

 

[B-Man2]

I went through and checked all the photos we had of IBF contracts, and...nothing. The other photo we had a of an IBF 7823B (same contract as Burt's) has that same, weird zipper configuration, but the zippers on all IBF 7823A and 7823C jackets that we had (as well as the earlier LW Foster 7823s) were normal. So is the other IBF 7823B contract.

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Thanks for your research Jan.
Looks like it was just a fluke.

 

[mulceber]

Oh, I was going to suggest it was a design choice. All of the ones from that contract that we've seen have that feature? Unless we see a bunch that lack that feature, it was probably done deliberately.

 

[C Grinde]

I have two 7823B jackets size 46. The top is Ralph Edwards 1963 contract, and the bottom is I believe an Irvin Foster. It does not have a spec label. I have narrowed it down to it being an Foster jacket.
I think in their larger sizes of this contract series had this gap. I have seen this on many larger size Fosters of the B series. That is one of the ways I figured this is a Foster.

I guess they did not access to longer Conmar zippers for the "Hungry Man" sizes.

Today after I posted the new size 48 Irvin B Foster I just received , I noticed what I thought was a wonky war time production flaw in this mint G-1 jacket. When I put the jacket on the zipper box started about 2 inches up from the bottom of the jacket . When I zipped the jacket up it left a gap at the bottom of the zipper to the end of the jacket . See below View attachment 78238
Thinking that this was one of those wonky wartime flaws that we discuss from time to time, I texted Jan (Mulceber) and told him about this issue. After a few minutes Jan had reviewed this thread and came back with a photo of another Irvin B foster with the same wonky issue. See photo from post #70 below .View attachment 78239
So what Jan and I are now wondering is ..
Is this a new found trait or a “tell” for an Irvin B Forster G-1 jacket ? It this typical for all IBF G-1s ? Can we now say that this is a manufacturing trait of this contract and use this as a possible means of identifying other unknown or missing label G-1 IBF jackets ? If you have an Irving B Foster G-1 please post a photo of the closed zipper box to see if it also has the same wonky appearance as these two jackets . Thanks for your time .

Today after I posted the new size 48 Irvin B Foster I just received , I noticed what I thought was a wonky war time production flaw in this mint G-1 jacket. When I put the jacket on the zipper box started about 2 inches up from the bottom of the jacket . When I zipped the jacket up it left a gap at the bottom of the zipper to the end of the jacket . See below View attachment 78238
Thinking that this was one of those wonky wartime flaws that we discuss from time to time, I texted Jan (Mulceber) and told him about this issue. After a few minutes Jan had reviewed this thread and came back with a photo of another Irvin B foster with the same wonky issue. See photo from post #70 below .View attachment 78239
So what Jan and I are now wondering is ..
Is this a new found trait or a “tell” for an Irvin B Forster G-1 jacket ? It this typical for all IBF G-1s ? Can we now say that this is a manufacturing trait of this contract and use this as a possible means of identifying other unknown or missing label G-1 IBF jackets ? If you have an Irving B Foster G-1 please post a photo of the closed zipper box to see if it also has the same wonky appearance as these two jackets . Thanks for your time .

 

[CombatWombat]

I've just been offered a Orchard G1 in size 48.....my question is A) is the quality of the goatskin or cowhide better,worse or the same as a Cooper orange label jacket.
B) I know the collar is synthetic but is it itchy like Moulton or sits comfortably against the skin?
C) are the knits wool or a wool/synth mix?
D) is the synth collar and potentially knits a FR synthetic or a "my freaking hands are on fire " sort of synthetic stuff?
(Last one is kinda important since it's going to be used around woodfires and camping)

 

[War_Pigeon]

This thread's information should seriously be archived... maybe at the museum of naval aviation, maybe in a book somewhere. This is probably the world's most comprehensive and thorough coverage of the history of the Naval flyers jacket.


... and I feel cheated that we don't get Mouton or fur anymore!

 

[London Cabbie]

IRVIN B.FOSTER & SONS SPORTSWEAR CO., INC. CONTRACT NO. DA 36-243-QM(CTM)8834-C-61, courtesy of @Jorgeenriqueaguilera
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Was the green tonic rayon lining particular to this contract or a re-lined?

 

[London Cabbie]

Well, here are some photos of the W&G 55J14. It's from a pilot who flew the converted b-24 which was fitted with a single tail. They were called Privateers and were submarine hunters. I researched this pilot and the Dpt. of the Navy sent me his files. He was decorated for disabling/sinking a german U-Boat. According to conventional thinking, the date of the 55J14 manufacturing does not compute with WWII. It might be possible that the pilot was issued a new or additional jacket after the end of the war? I don't know. Could it be possible W&G got the contract earlier than other manufacturers? A mystery. Also, this jacket does not have a pencil pocket!
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That’s the very best designed hand painted patch I’ve ever seen.