Buttoned Pocket Flaps A-2 Jackets

[2BM2K]

In view of thread developments it might be worth taking another look at this photo;



I don't have a date for the photo but the plane looks a fairly early type.

There is no visible shoulder seam behind the epaulette. It seems that the shoulder seam is underneath
the epaulette. The first known contract to have a shoulder seam under the epaulette is, interestly, the Fried Ostermann from Dec 1941.

Which means that this could be a photo of the Goldsmith or a Werber 32-6225

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Good Spot

 

[Roughwear]

My money would be on Goldsmith jacket as all the Werber contract jackets from the 33-1729 had the shoulder seam aligned to the back of the epaulet. I imagine the 32-6225 was the same.

 

[Skyhawk]

It's hard to be sure but from what I can see the button holes on Hap's jacket apperar to be US style (Machine made) rather than the hand made European piped/welted style on the other two A-2s
This also makes sense due to the exact defintition/ terminology of the word "Facing"...............The tab/loop "debate" reminded me of this post, and the song "Lets Call The Whole Thing Off"

BTW I stand to be correced on the terms of the words, "Piped", "Welted" & "Facing/Faced" in the good old US of A

They are clearly "Piped, Welted, Inset......Etc." Not machined.

Regards,
Jay

 

[33-1729]

They are clearly "Piped, Welted, Inset......Etc." Not machined.
View attachment 6149

Regards,
Jay

This pocket detail, along with the very wide color stand, have not been seen on any other known original maker - Yes? No? Any other unique details?

Anyone in Dayton, Ohio want to visit the museum and see if they have Hap Arnold's jacket in the back? Never hurts to ask.

 

[Roughwear]

Yes this is true and both are unique features of this early A-2 contract.

 

[zoomer]

BTW Geeboo: The 1st Obsvn Sq guy may be Capt. Edward Raley, apparently squadron CO early in the 30s. Raley was air intelligence chief at Pearl Harbor at the time we were attacked.

 

[Skyhawk]

This pocket detail, along with the very wide color stand, have not been seen on any other known original maker - Yes? No? Any other unique details?

Anyone in Dayton, Ohio want to visit the museum and see if they have Hap Arnold's jacket in the back? Never hurts to ask.

That would be a find! I kinda doubt it though. Hap appears to show up in another A-2 not long after those photos were taken. Lord knows what happened to that jacket. Passed on to another airman? A family member? At his home? He wasn't seen wearing that jacket for too long it seems. So maybe the jacket is not really associated with Hap and his achievements.

Besides with no snaps, a button loop, small pockets, and those weirdly placed epaulets, maybe it was thought that it was just not "uniform" enough to fit in. So he got another newer contract jacket that would match everyone else.

Denny Crane

- Jay

 

[zoomer]

Or perhaps the Goldie had some flaw that caused damage, discomfort, etc etc...we are talking a jacket made by an outfit specializing in "not jackets"...

Uniformity was taken loosely in those years. But Arnold took a keen enough interest in matériel matters to be assigned to head that command. He'd have wanted to wear-test anything his fliers were going to get.

BTW, the jacket with the Alaska crest appears to be the - or *a* - jacket formerly bearing the group crest in the bottom pic. Note the stitch holes! The fit is similar too. As is the time frame: summer '34 for the Alaska pic, spring for the biplane pic (taken at Salt Lake City airport during the mail flights).

 

[zoomer]

Now assuming Spatz's and Hoyt’s no-epaulet jackets were custom builds - or maybe even converted A-1s - it's possible that the shirt type collar was a Spatz idea. Why do I say that? Check this pic. No one else wore his shirt collar outside the knit one.

 

[DiamondDave]

Tab Collar Shirt?
That's got a loop but it's not called a loop collar

Ken,

There was no attitude involved. Accuracy is what we are talking about here.

Yes actually it is called a loop collared shirt.

A "loop" is sewn as a tube, or simply turned in and topstitched, then applied to the collar...

Conversely a "Tab" is a flat sewn piece with a button hole placed in it (sometimes a snap).
Tabs are generally used as a "stay" for a neck tie these days, as it lifts the knot up.

Lastly we have a strap collar (sometimes called a chinstrap) which again, is a different animal.

These are rudimentary clothing terms.

DD

 

[B-Man2]

While it would be an extraordinary find to locate Arnold’s jacket, let’s just think for a moment that during the course of his career how many jackets he may have worn. In his various commands he literally could have had a new jacket every month if he wanted one. At some point it might be interesting to look at a collection of his photos to see just how many different A2s we could identify during different periods in his career.
But locating that Goldsmith would be a “find” wouldn’t it?

 

[2BM2K]

Now assuming Spatz's no-epaulet jacket was a one-off

Don't forget the Hoyt jacket.

Looking at the Arnold jacket the epaulette appears to be folded under itself and then sewn onto the shoulder.

As only 25 jackets were produced, new design with a company not used to making jackets maybe there were small differences between each.

 

[33-1729]

Okay, this may be a stretch, but if you look at P. Goldsmith Sons baseball history they had a standard center cross logo on their bats, gloves, and baseballs from around 1912 until 1933 that contained the words for Goldsmith and trade mark. The writing around the trade mark cross varied across the bats, gloves, etc., likely because of the different product focus. Nonetheless, I would expect this to be on a label in the Goldsmith Sons 31-1897 though no idea on the color scheme (yet).

Baseballs - http://keymancollectibles.com/goldsmithbaseball.htm

Bats - http://keymancollectibles.com/goldsmithbatdate.htm

Gloves - http://www.baseballglovecollector.com/gallery/goldsmith/

 

[Skyhawk]

Could be, or maybe not. I already have the labels designed. I have been researching this for about a year. You will see my results very soon!

By the way. interesting the Iron Cross logo considering the Nazi symbol.

 

[33-1729]

Could be, or maybe not. I already have the labels designed. I have been researching this for about a year. You will see my results very soon!

By the way. interesting the Iron Cross logo considering the Nazi symbol.

Recall the SAT 32-485 had two labels. That may have been true for the Goldsmith too.

 

[Skyhawk]

Stop already! Geez!

 

[Persimmon]

Stop already! Geez!

You need to release your tags now or be accused of taking on an idea Jay.

 

[Skyhawk]

OK here we go! Gathering the files......

 

[Skyhawk]

I believe the tag setup would have been similar to the SAT jacket. They would have been provided the spec tag and allowed to affix a company tag as well. Working on the images.....