Best M422 repro ?

[Grant]

Dark seal original WG M422:

Wow, that original WG M422 looks "ridden hard and put away wet". I'll snap pics of my basically unworn W&G M422 as comparion. John's looks pretty good. Wonder if he copied the strange has short sleeves of the W&G M422.

 

[Smithy]

More recent GW Willis and Geiger M422:

View attachment 93607

Holy smoke that's a looker and then some Jeff!

 

[ZuZu]

Yes- I've seen yours on his CD. Can I have it? He will copy the strange arms if you ask him too but I don't think they'll be as short as some original examples. Erol Flyn's pic comes to mind. Those pics also show that specific dark brown you talk about. I think that a darker seal was used as well. The AVG pics seem to show this.

 

[ZuZu]

Darker? Perhaps. WG? Pretty sure:

Admittedly hard to say for sure...

 

[ShanghaiJack]

IIRC Willis & Geiger received a $250,000 contract from the
Chinese Government to produce flight jackets, and flying
clothing for the AVG in 1941.

 

[Chandler]

IIRC Willis & Geiger received a $250,000 contract from the
Chinese Government to produce flight jackets, and flying
clothing for the AVG in 1941.

Willis & Geiger? Maybe the flight suits?

I had always heard the CAMCO people just procured what they could from available military stores.

Does anyone know who made the M-444 jackets the AVG used?

 

[ShanghaiJack]

@Chandler

Well.. Larry Pistole would have certainly known the answer to your question.
He had, at the time of the publishing of his book, the largest collection of
AVG militaria which had been "loaned" to him by the AVG members themselves.
And... all of the controversy that later came after he allegedly refused to return
the items to their rightful owners.

In the 1990s I had conversations with DiSipio, Burkey, and Chapman regarding AVG
gear, and the consensus was that it's likely that W&G supplied the M-444's, M-422's,
helmets, and flight suits, etc.

I was lucky enough to talk to several AVG then, and all of them, literally all,
could not tell you what was printed on the label of their gear. They just wore
it, it was unimportant, and they had "bigger fish to fry" as Eddie Rector told me.

Many AVG brought some of their own personal flight gear to use while in the AVG.
Some was newly acquired just prior to leaving for Burma, others, their old "issue"
gear that they had when they left home/duty stations for San Francisco.

See pics of USAAC guys like Arvid Olson wearing his famous A-4 flight suit adorned
with the Blood Chit sewn on the back , PJ Greene, Ed Leibolt, Erik Shilling, and
many other USAAC AVG's wearing their A-2's. One AVG, who's name escapes me at
the moment, wears an ever rare HLB Corp A-2.

Just my College of useless knowledge..

 

[Nickb123]

@Chandler

Well.. Larry Pistole would have certainly known the answer to your question.
He had, at the time of the publishing of his book, the largest collection of
AVG militaria which had been "loaned" to him by the AVG members themselves.
And... all of the controversy that later came after he allegedly refused to return
the items to their rightful owners.

In the 1990s I had conversations with DiSipio, Burkey, and Chapman regarding AVG
gear, and the consensus was that it's likely that W&G supplied the M-444's, M-422's,
helmets, and flight suits, etc.

I was lucky enough to talk to several AVG then, and all of them, literally all,
could not tell you what was printed on the label of their gear. They just wore
it, it was unimportant, and they had bigger "fish to fry" as Eddie Rector told me.

Many AVG brought some of their own personal flight gear to use while in the AVG.
Some was newly acquired just prior to leaving for Burma, others, their old "issue"
gear they had when the left home/duty stations for San Francisco.

See pics of USAAC guys like Arvid Olson wearing his famous A-4 flight suit adorned
with the Blood Chit sewn on the back , PJ Greene, Ed Leibolt, Erik Shilling, and
many other USAAC AVG's wearing their A-2's One AVG, who's name escapes me at
the moment, wears an ever rare HLB Corp A-2.

Just my College of useless knowledge..

That’s far from useless. Sounds like you knew some cool cats.

 

[Chandler]

@ShanghaiJack

I'd never heard that about Pistole -- I have his book buried in storage (that I've promised myself for too long to unearth).

No surprise that the pilots/crew never paid attention to their spec tags -- and their hides or fit or zips or knits...

At one point in time (many moons ago) I pored thru my AVG books to list out the owners of A-2s I could find -- Shilling seeming to be the most prominent in pics, but that list is lost in another closed forum somewhere.

But to the research you did on W&G, do you think the company supplied direct to the CAMCO reps, or more likely the Navy was the source and it was W&G items that happened to be in store?

 

[Mr. Mike]

Purely from a timing perspective of AVGs activity phase chances are quite good that the (Navy) sourced jackets should have been M-422 and with that in mind chances also increase it could have been W&Gs (https://www.vintageleatherjackets.o...-and-later-intermediate-flight-jackets.27377/). In a recent comment John C. also referred to that most probable link (https://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/sale_wgM422_0003.html). As AVGs operations were no officially formalized I could well imagine though that they did not source it via the Navy directly but CAMCO/Chinese Airforce rather sourced it from a contingent promised to the Navy directly from the maker (i.e. probably without the USN mark behind the collar ;o))

 

[Chandler]

As AVGs operations were no officially formalized I could well imagine though that they did not source it via the Navy directly but CAMCO/Chinese Airforce rather sourced it from a contingent promised to the Navy directly from the maker (i.e. probably without the USN mark behind the collar ;o))

Not "officially" formalized, but based on newer accounts I've read there was more behind-door approval of the AVG than got out at the time. So, since the Chinese government (thru CAMCO) was negotiating equipment -- like P-40s -- with US "approval," I have to imagine other procurement worked similarly. Whether direct from a manufacturer, or via government channels is my question.

So yeah, the Navy told CAMCO, "We have an allotment of flight jackets coming from W&G we can redirect for you." But that would suggest no direct sale from W&G.

Just my theory -- and food for thought.

 

[Chandler]

FWIW -- this is the latest book I've read -- it has some more info than I've read in the past.

The Flying Tigers

The thrilling story behind the American pilots who were secretly recruited to defend the nation’s desperate Chinese allies before Pearl Harbor and ended up on the front lines of the war against the Japanese in the Pacific. Sam Kleiner’s The Flying Tigers uncovers the hidden story of the group...

books.google.com

 

[Chandler]

(i.e. probably without the USN mark behind the collar ;o))

It *would* be interesting to know if the procured jackets had USN stencils or spec tags -- or did pilots and crew spend some time removing tell-tale connections to US involvement?

 

[B-Man2]

It *would* be interesting to know if the procured jackets had USN stencils or spec tags -- or did pilots and crew spend some time removing tell-tale connections to US involvement?

I always found it funny that whenever the US Government was providing military equipment, weapons or material support to another nation, who’s at war with a third nation, that the U.S. military establishment tried to cloak or sterilize those supplies , equipment and weaponry for the purpose of plausible denial of non involvement. That may have worked in the early 1900’s but by time the AVG guys were fighting in China , everyone including Japan knew who they were and what country was providing men and war materials to China. Just my thoughts.

 

[mulceber]

Maybe that's the point - add insult to injury. "Not only are we going to give your enemy weapons, but we're going to do the laziest job in history of concealing our involvement."

 

[ZuZu]

I always found it funny that whenever the US Government was providing military equipment, weapons or material support to another nation, who’s at war with a third nation, that the U.S. military establishment tried to cloak or sterilize those supplies , equipment and weaponry for the purpose of plausible denial of non involvement. That may have worked in the early 1900’s but by time the AVG guys were fighting in China , everyone including Japan knew who they were and what country was providing men and war materials to China. Just my thoughts.

Kinda still happening today...

 

[ZuZu]

I guess we aren't really "cloaking" it today...

 

[B-Man2]

Kinda still happening today...

Yep … absolutely . Off Subject but
I remember talking to guys from JSOC ( Joint Special Operations Command) back in the 1970 thru 1980s and several of them told me that they weren’t permitted to have certain tattoos because they were easily attributable to the US. Well obviously that’s no longer the case as some of the operators I’ve talked to in recent years have entire sleeve tattoo’s .

 

[Chandler]

That may have worked in the early 1900’s but by time the AVG guys were fighting in China , everyone including Japan knew who they were and what country was providing men and war materials to China. Just my thoughts.

Soldiers of Fortune -- volunteers... big plausible deniability.

But yeah, that new book I posted above has some documentation that was never released until recently -- would've erased any PD at the time.

 

[ShanghaiJack]

The last book that I read, regarding the AVG, was Dan Ford's Lady and the Tigers by Olga Greenlaw.
Some great information in that book, from Olga's perspective, but scant on these matters.

However, regarding materiel and the AVG, IIRC The Maverick War by Duane Schultz had some info.

The Maverick War: Chennault and the Flying Tigers: Schultz, Duane P: 9780312006181: Amazon.com: Books

The Maverick War: Chennault and the Flying Tigers [Schultz, Duane P] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Maverick War: Chennault and the Flying Tigers

www.amazon.com

I haven't read that book since the mid 1990's, so take that recommendation with a grain of salt.

I had notebooks full of info that I had written down when I talked to AVG, CATF/14th AF Veterans.
Sadly, those notebooks were lost in a flood 20+ years ago, and my memory isn't crystal clear.
But, IIRC when gear came in via CNAC, it came from Calcutta, India. And the AVG in Kunming would
be "issued" the gear, for some reason I think that I remember Hostel #3 being the "S-4" for the AVG.

My memory is much too foggy as to S-4 in Burma, sad to say. Initially Rangoon/Kyedaw, and later Loiwing
were certainly being frequently visited by CNAC and making deliveries for CAMCO and the AVG.