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AVI LTHR BRONCO A-2 Jacket Review & Pics
- Thread starter Brettafett
- Start date
Pilot
Well-Known Member
Perhaps....
Ken at Aero Leather
Well-Known Member
Perhaps typing out the full names of some of these countries is just too time consuming...........
"The Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya" for instance
That's why we never bothered with "Made in The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".
"Made in Scotland" just had to suffice
"The Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya" for instance
That's why we never bothered with "Made in The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".
"Made in Scotland" just had to suffice
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Persimmon
Well-Known Member
Selling jackets to happy customers no doubt.
I wonder how many - Made in Scotland - labels Ken could make up for them !!
Ken at Aero Leather
Well-Known Member
Any updates?
Persimmon
Well-Known Member
You could always write to them yourself if it’s that important.
One jacket Czar to another.
Us low level folks can easily be ignored
Smithy
Well-Known Member
Rather than whingeing about the competition maybe you should look at ways you could offer a more competitively priced introductory A-2, seeing as there seems to be a market for it.
It always looks a bit base and sad when a maker insists on having a pop at another crowd (whether right or wrong) as it just looks like insecurity.
ties70
Well-Known Member
Not sure if this is really fair.
Competition might be a nuisance for Aero, but with a main Focus on other stuff than A-2 jackets I really doubt that Ken feels an impact by AVI's Business activities. As for offering a "competitive" Jacket, it is exactly Ken's Argument that he would love to do so....but on a comparable playing field. This could never happen with one product made in Scotland and one in a developing country...
Don't get me wrong: I am not judging Aero or AVI. Just saying that they are probably not really comparable. Maybe their products are ... Their manufacturing and labor processes? Unlikely...
Besides that, I really appreciate Ken's input here at VLJ. He is not just chiming in for the regular sales Pitch, as we had in the past from other members / manufacturers...
Just my personal opinion, with no Intention to offend anyone...
Ties
Smithy
Well-Known Member
That might be so Ties but in truth it never looks good when a maker starts slagging off another maker for whatever reason. The Bill Kelso fiasco was a prime example of that. We don't see Gary or John, or any of the other makers coming on here to have a go at a new maker. Slagging off the opposition or making snide asides or taking jabs always looks like extreme insecurity on the side of those doing the slagging.
TBH I have no idea why Ken is even bothering to be so interested in AVI LTHR unless part of him thinks that they're offering something which undermines his product price-wise. In relation to that, this was always going to happening considering how quickly and how hugely their A-2 prices (along with the others) have increased over the last few years. Raising your prices by enormous amounts over a short period of time was always going to lead to this - punters looking for more cost effective options. This left a gap for someone to come in and offer a relatively accurate introductory A-2 for a reasonable price. As I mentioned above rather than whingeing about the opposition or taking sarky potshots, maybe it's an opportunity to find a way to offer a competitively priced entry jacket and adapting to something which is happening in the market.
Technonut2112
Well-Known Member
The imported goatskin A-2 which was sold by Aero years-back actually wasn't a bad entry-level A-2 at all.. I had one for awhile, and liked it for the $$:
ties70
Well-Known Member
Smithy,
I think that your perspective is a fair interpretation of this issue. My view, though, is still a different one...
Of course, we do not want manufacturers hanging around here, giving us the pep talk how great especially their jacket is...you mentioned it: we have been there before, and for me this discussion made me not only not buy a BK jacket, but stay away from the forum itself for a long time.
Nevertheless, I appreciate that makers like Ken and Jay are with us, giving their perspective and expertise, and can be adressed by us directly because they are fellow members.
John Chapman is a neutral moderator here, so he is like the Switzerland of the VLJF.
Gary Eastman chose not to be a (contributing?) member here. Neither are the guys from AVILTHR.
It's free for everyone to guess why they decided that way, I do not know it.... I think this forum has a lot of power and can do more harm to the reputation of companies than we think...take the discussion on the ELC price increase, for example.
I still do not see Ken's posts as "bashing on the competition".
As I mentioned before: I doubt that Ken sees AVI as a proper competition for his overall business.
But we do! Opening the discussion on competition came from us members. We were the ones who compared jackets from ELC, from Aero and AVI, and expected them to be equally or at least "fairly" priced...because "they are basically the same thing"...
For me it was Ken's right to address this and point to the fact that there are differences...not in the final result but in the way to get there.
To set this straight:
I am not affiliated with Aero and I am not really a big fan of their jackets. They simply do not fit me very well, so I have to look elsewhere.
To be honest, I really like the photos of the AVI jackets (they will not fit me as well, as their sizing stops at 46").
What I would like to have, though, is a complete picture of the company, to make a decision not only based on pricing but ... yeah, on the big picture. I do not have a problem with buying a jacket made in India or Pakistan per se...hell, if AVILTHR has found craftmanship over there, employs the guys at good wages (by their local standard) and under good conditions, keeps them from radicalizing, then that is perfectly fine with me.
This should even be their marketing approach then!
Pheeew, sorry for the rant
.Don't take it personal, Smithy, I like you!
Ties
johnwayne
Well-Known Member
Think this has all gone a bit pear shaped! Ultimately you pay your money you take your choice and as much as we can harp on about cheap labour and yes I'd love to see more local manufacturing, it ain't gonna happen in the materialistic and throw away world we now live in. The big designer brands have been buying low and selling high for years now - where were Ralph Lauren A2's made? They to me looked exactly like entry level A2's (too thin and flimsy albeit not bad) but certainly not priced as such!! Staying off topic, ELC's patches I believe all come from India but I doubt they could have got a local supplier even if they tried!!!
Smithy
Well-Known Member
Smithy,
I think that your perspective is a fair interpretation of this issue. My view, though, is still a different one...
Of course, we do not want manufacturers hanging around here, giving us the pep talk how great especially their jacket is...you mentioned it: we have been there before, and for me this discussion made me not only not buy a BK jacket, but stay away from the forum itself for a long time.
Nevertheless, I appreciate that makers like Ken and Jay are with us, giving their perspective and expertise, and can be adressed by us directly because they are fellow members.
John Chapman is a neutral moderator here, so he is like the Switzerland of the VLJF.
Gary Eastman chose not to be a (contributing?) member here. Neither are the guys from AVILTHR.
It's free for everyone to guess why they decided that way, I do not know it.... I think this forum has a lot of power and can do more harm to the reputation of companies than we think...take the discussion on the ELC price increase, for example.
I still do not see Ken's posts as "bashing on the competition".
As I mentioned before: I doubt that Ken sees AVI as a proper competition for his overall business.
But we do! Opening the discussion on competition came from us members. We were the ones who compared jackets from ELC, from Aero and AVI, and expected them to be equally or at least "fairly" priced...because "they are basically the same thing"...
For me it was Ken's right to address this and point to the fact that there are differences...not in the final result but in the way to get there.
To set this straight:
I am not affiliated with Aero and I am not really a big fan of their jackets. They simply do not fit me very well, so I have to look elsewhere.
To be honest, I really like the photos of the AVI jackets (they will not fit me as well, as their sizing stops at 46").
What I would like to have, though, is a complete picture of the company, to make a decision not only based on pricing but ... yeah, on the big picture. I do not have a problem with buying a jacket made in India or Pakistan per se...hell, if AVILTHR has found craftmanship over there, employs the guys at good wages (by their local standard) and under good conditions, keeps them from radicalizing, then that is perfectly fine with me.
This should even be their marketing approach then!
Pheeew, sorry for the rant
Don't take it personal, Smithy, I like you!
Ties
Ties, I would never take something like this personally. We're all big boys and I never mind people disagreeing with me, either my mates face to face or chums on an internet discussion board.
Ken is a good sort and I like his posts as he has an enormous depth of knowledge but I think his coming into this and making snide remarks or casting suspicions about another maker is bad form. I'd say that about any maker having a crack at the opposition for whatever reason. Ken is not doing this as an act of generosity to the world nor as a public service announcement. He's doing it to make somebody selling a similar product look bad. He might be doing it in a subtle way but he's still doing it and in my book that's improper. It doesn't matter who it is or what it is, I'd say this on a golf forum if somebody from Titleist started having a go at Callaway. Slagging off the opposition or casting dispersions about them always looks bad.
There's obviously a growing market for a more reasonably priced repro A-2 with semi decent accuracy. You could convincingly argue that this grew out of the very aggressive price increases that companies such as Aero pursued over the last few years. Rather than rail against the competition perhaps it's an opportunity to introduce an entry level repro at a good price point. As Technonut showed, Aero have done this before with an Indian made A-2. Maybe it's time to look at something similar again and which could be marketed as fair trade, etc, etc. All markets shift and evolve over time and it's up to businesses to adapt to keep pace with change. Whingeing about the competition isn't that.
Pilot
Well-Known Member
Wages, materials and taxes in the “ Western and Japanese ” manufacturing “ World” to produce such an A-2, are already higher than the selling price of an AVILTHR jacket...
So its totally unrealistic, ( IMHO even an unfair compairison) to believe Ken can put an A-2 , ...even an entry/budget A-2...on the market for a similar “ price”.
Keeping pace with low cost country makers means ultimately...producing under the same conditions...Ken does not want this...but keep the jobs and all others in his environement.
Besides, Ken never bashed anyone, just asked for info and thoughts ( several others incl. me, did as well ask the same question and still wait for an answer) about products and productions etc...Surely AVILTHR is free to respond or not...its his Image and commercial lobby.
So its totally unrealistic, ( IMHO even an unfair compairison) to believe Ken can put an A-2 , ...even an entry/budget A-2...on the market for a similar “ price”.
Keeping pace with low cost country makers means ultimately...producing under the same conditions...Ken does not want this...but keep the jobs and all others in his environement.
Besides, Ken never bashed anyone, just asked for info and thoughts ( several others incl. me, did as well ask the same question and still wait for an answer) about products and productions etc...Surely AVILTHR is free to respond or not...its his Image and commercial lobby.
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Smithy
Well-Known Member
Sorry Pilot but Ken has been having a crack at AVI LTHR and in quite a few posts both here and also in the "Flight Jacket History Page from AVI LTHR" thread. You probably disagree with me but where I stand, slagging off/bashing/insinuating about the opposition is never correct and always looks bad for a business. Once again maybe that's just me.
Of course Aero couldn't produce an entry level, made in Scotland A-2, that's why it was suggested that Aero could do something similar as they did in the past with their Indian made goatskin A-2. There seems to be a market for such a jacket and the real irony is that it's most likely because companies like Aero drove their prices up very quickly and in a short space of time. You can't blame some people for starting to look for more cost effective options.
Pilot
Well-Known Member
Thx for your swift feedback.
Did not see Ken’s bashing, sorry.
The only thing I read he (plus many others) was questioning about ethics, honest wages ( according to honest local standards)...using toxic free materials, paying dues and taxes and beeing transparent about where all is made...So far these last questions have not been answered...not to anyone.
According to EU laws, no obligation to specify where its made ( garnment) if retailed via an EU country and all duties and taxes paid there ( in the present scheme ...in Denmark..with a high taxing system...so imagine the real production costs of the jacket)...
Neverthethess, one obligation remains...the made of...the precise composition...of the fabric parts, the knits or the leather....( EU 1007/2011 & CITES compliance ) if not produced in the reatailing country....these info are missing if I am not mistaken...
As long as nobody complains, all fine...but...as soon as one ( EU customer) officially complains ..an IBO might be launched by Danish customs....pe. testing of used dyes , tanning agents and chemicals according to EN/ISO 17075 etc...
Long procedures...and costly if something is not as it was declared during imports...Correcting ( costly )measures will be necessary as well. If the jacket would state the ( truth) Made in Pakistan...the duties and customer “likes” would surely be different. Why not beeing transparent? This is all the discussion was and is about.
If Ken or another not well meant customer wants to bash hard...this is the legal procedure...to bash.
Sorry Smithy, I still like you and all others.
Did not see Ken’s bashing, sorry.
The only thing I read he (plus many others) was questioning about ethics, honest wages ( according to honest local standards)...using toxic free materials, paying dues and taxes and beeing transparent about where all is made...So far these last questions have not been answered...not to anyone.
According to EU laws, no obligation to specify where its made ( garnment) if retailed via an EU country and all duties and taxes paid there ( in the present scheme ...in Denmark..with a high taxing system...so imagine the real production costs of the jacket)...
Neverthethess, one obligation remains...the made of...the precise composition...of the fabric parts, the knits or the leather....( EU 1007/2011 & CITES compliance ) if not produced in the reatailing country....these info are missing if I am not mistaken...
As long as nobody complains, all fine...but...as soon as one ( EU customer) officially complains ..an IBO might be launched by Danish customs....pe. testing of used dyes , tanning agents and chemicals according to EN/ISO 17075 etc...
Long procedures...and costly if something is not as it was declared during imports...Correcting ( costly )measures will be necessary as well. If the jacket would state the ( truth) Made in Pakistan...the duties and customer “likes” would surely be different. Why not beeing transparent? This is all the discussion was and is about.
If Ken or another not well meant customer wants to bash hard...this is the legal procedure...to bash.
Sorry Smithy, I still like you and all others.
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Ken at Aero Leather
Well-Known Member
I’ve no beef with AVI’s product or pricing and we really don’t see them as competition or a threat but I do have a problem generally with underhand advertising (which they blatantly do), shady business practices and exploitation which they might be hiding, not that AVI are even in The Conference League when compared with some of the (non Leather Jacket) Premier Leaguers
Galashiels is a town with a population of 13,000. Fifty years ago virtually all the working population would have been employed in the clothing or weaving industry. Today there are only four manufacturers left plus a cloth finishers but no Mills whatsoever, these few firms are employing less that 100 workers in total. So many skills handed down through the generations have been lost, for instance at Aero only approx. a third if our staff are “local, born and bred” we’ve as many Heriot Watt Graduates as we’ve got locals. This skill loss is happening all over Britain, when we tried to find a waistcoat maker in The UK we found there are none left and had to go to Portugal. Once we’ve lost our manufacturing industry what have we got as a nation? Tourist? Have you ever been behind a line of caravans on The A82 in the summer?
Burberry’s closed their factory in Wales a few years ago because “It was too expensive to manufacture in Wales”…….too expensive to make an £800 Raincoat that couldn’t have cost over £100 to produce in The UK?
Scottish Enterprise, a Government Body, advised Aero in 1994 that we were “wasting our time trying to manufacture in Scotland, we should be designing here and making in China” You couldn’t make it up!
Everyone needs to be aware of what they are buying, and where it comes from and why it’s being made there. Then they are free to make an informed choice. Using clever text to suggest a garment is being made somewhere in The EU when it’s obviously not and allowing their retailers to advertise the said garment as being made in that particular EU country really is not on. Sharp practices damage the whole industry.
Galashiels is a town with a population of 13,000. Fifty years ago virtually all the working population would have been employed in the clothing or weaving industry. Today there are only four manufacturers left plus a cloth finishers but no Mills whatsoever, these few firms are employing less that 100 workers in total. So many skills handed down through the generations have been lost, for instance at Aero only approx. a third if our staff are “local, born and bred” we’ve as many Heriot Watt Graduates as we’ve got locals. This skill loss is happening all over Britain, when we tried to find a waistcoat maker in The UK we found there are none left and had to go to Portugal. Once we’ve lost our manufacturing industry what have we got as a nation? Tourist? Have you ever been behind a line of caravans on The A82 in the summer?
Burberry’s closed their factory in Wales a few years ago because “It was too expensive to manufacture in Wales”…….too expensive to make an £800 Raincoat that couldn’t have cost over £100 to produce in The UK?
Scottish Enterprise, a Government Body, advised Aero in 1994 that we were “wasting our time trying to manufacture in Scotland, we should be designing here and making in China” You couldn’t make it up!
Everyone needs to be aware of what they are buying, and where it comes from and why it’s being made there. Then they are free to make an informed choice. Using clever text to suggest a garment is being made somewhere in The EU when it’s obviously not and allowing their retailers to advertise the said garment as being made in that particular EU country really is not on. Sharp practices damage the whole industry.
