Anyone interested in Fivestar horsehide? 3 shades in progress..

[Smithy]

I am not at all an expert in leather tanning processes, but from what I understand, chrome tanning is a very polluting process and is banned in many countries, right ?

The older versions of it which were used during the period we are talking about were even more so.

But one of the characteristics of chrome tanned leather is that it is far less stiffer than veg tanned leathers.

 

[P-47 thunderbolt]

Diamond Dave used some nice chrome tanned steerhide on his aero jackets, with semi aniline finish. Certainly a softer drape then the veg tanned stuff of elc or BK

 

[Kermit3D]

I have always noticed a big difference in the way the collar behaves on the original A-2s compared to most modern reproductions.

 

[Kermit3D]

Diamond Dave used some nice chrome tanned steerhide on his aero jackets, with semi aniline finish. Certainly a softer drape then the veg tanned stuff of elc or BK

What is a semi aniline finish ? (yes I really don't know anything about it )

 

[flyincowboy]

It's just about the colour, pigment and the leather finish. Semi-aniline dye contains just a small amount of pigment. This means that the leather will have a more uniform coloring than a full aniline leather.

 

[Chandler]

So who has the documentation that flight jackets were made from chrome-tanned leather in the 30s and 40s?

I have jackets tanned with both methods that each drape and fall in very different ways.

I'm pretty sure all of my boots are chrome-tanned and they also range from stiff as a board to soft and playable.

So is there a definitive way to identify chrome from veg? Especially in 80-year-old leather (or 80-year-old photos?)?

Has JC ever chimed in on this discussion? I see the majority of his available leather is vegetable-tanned.

 

[Skyhawk]

The specs of the USAC, USAAF, and the USN all called for Chrome tanned hides. That means from the A-1's / 37J1's of the 1920's all the way through the modern A-2 / G-1. It is listed in the specifications.
Aniline - Drum Dyed No pigment or lacquer top coat added. Leather is unprotected and breathable
Semi-aniline - A light coat of pigment and lacquer added. Leather is lightly protected, still breathable
Chrome Tanned - Drum or spray dyed, then a lacquer topcoat and also sometimes pigment topcoat added. Leather fully protected and lightly breathable
Vegetable tanned - Drum Dyed using plant based dyes - A topcoat of lacquer and also pigment can be used to achieve the look and properties desired

 

[Chandler]

The specs also called for a silk lining at one point, right? Point being, how much manufacturing adhered to those specs -- and it still doesn't conclude whether chrome-tanning was used in majority.

 

[mulceber]

It would be very unlikely that they would deviate from the specs in order to use veg tanned hides: vegetable tanned leather takes much longer to make, is more expensive, and wasn't commonly used for garments in the early 20th century. The only reason it really survived as a method of tanning was because it was necessary for making saddlery, since the chrome tanned leather could leach into the skin of horses if they broke a sweat.

 

[Chandler]

But the specs posted above show both veg and chrome tanning as usable.

I just looked at the 1932 A-2 spec sheet available at Acme Depot (I'll try to download it from my desktop) and there's no mention of a specified tanning method.

 

[Morecowbell]

Just catching up on this thread, and can add that the hides on my Bronco measure .8 to .9 mm with a digital caliper. Re shrinkage, I would guess yes - its a 42 but its 18" across the top of the shoulder seam. Basically it fits me really well and it shouldn't, I'm typically a 40.

I also have samples coming from Shawn, HH along with other leathers and knits. Should be here Thursday - looking at the Seal Brown HH for an A-1 but wanted to see everything in person, I find colors are really tough to interpret on computer screens.

 

[flyincowboy]

Guess that avaiability and demand for such leather were the most ordered from the factory where the hide are prepared!

 

[2BM2K]

So who has the documentation that flight jackets were made from chrome-tanned leather in the 30s and 40s?

The Eastman A2 Manual from 2012 has scans of the leather specifications and also results from the USAAF tests of leather samples. All chrome tanned.

 

[Southoftheborder]

So who has the documentation that flight jackets were made from chrome-tanned leather in the 30s and 40s?

I have jackets tanned with both methods that each drape and fall in very different ways.

I'm pretty sure all of my boots are chrome-tanned and they also range from stiff as a board to soft and playable.

So is there a definitive way to identify chrome from veg? Especially in 80-year-old leather (or 80-year-old photos?)?

Has JC ever chimed in on this discussion? I see the majority of his available leather is vegetable-tanned.

The only way I know is to cut a sliver off and drop it into boiling water. Veg tanned will shrivel up instantly into a tight disintegrating ball and chrome tanned won't. That test also indicates why chrome tanning took over from traditional tanning methods PDQ when it was finally perfected well over a century ago. Like lots of people I've washed plenty of leather jackets, even in a machine. You wouldn't want to do that with a vegetable tanned one.

 

[Chandler]

The Eastman A2 Manual from 2012 has scans of the leather specifications and also results from the USAAF tests of leather samples. All chrome tanned.

Well, this seems pretty definitive -- except for Gary contradicting himself on the ELC page.
"During most of the period that the A-2 was originally produced (1931 - 43), veg-tanned hides were used. Accordingly, the look and feel of a reproduction made from this type of hide best represents the vintage appeal of the original.

"Veg-tanning is uncommon these days; it is more time consuming to prepare than modern methods, generally difficult to produce, and is thus hard to source and more expensive. But expense cannot be spared if the definitive reproduction is the goal. Our endeavour to find the most authentic leather that is made using this process has been exhausting, but worth it. Specially prepared for us by an artisan Italian tanner we have had the most authentic horsehide recreated using traditional veg-tanning methods, which we call WarHorse®, the hide exudes sheer quality and authentic vintage character."

Even so, how does that explain the variations on color and uneven wear that is uncommon with chrome-tanning? Spray-dyed compared with drum-dying?

All my questions are just that, no attempt to discredit anyone's research or beliefs or rattle cages -- it just seems there is a lot of contradictory information floating around (I know, hard to believe, eh? )

 

[mulceber]

Well, this seems pretty definitive -- except for Gary contradicting himself on the ELC page.
"During most of the period that the A-2 was originally produced (1931 - 43), veg-tanned hides were used. Accordingly, the look and feel of a reproduction made from this type of hide best represents the vintage appeal of the original.

Yeah, what Gary's saying isn't correct, and I'm sure he knows that. If I had to guess, as ELC started marketing increasingly to the mid-century Americana demographic in Asia, he decided that saying "originals were veg tanned, just like ours" is a much easier sell than "originals were chrome tanned, but the process of chrome tanning has changed substantially since then, and we have to choose between achieving the look and drape of the originals, so we choose look." The simple falsehood is a much easier sell than the complicated truth. Every source I've ever seen that wasn't in the middle of trying to sell me something (and even some that were) has said chrome tanned.

 

[Skyhawk]

As for color variations, the chrome tanning of the past was not as bullet proof as today's methods. Also, you get different results if you drum dye and then chrome tan, then if you chrome tan and spray pigment. Even more colorfast results if you drum dye, chrome tan and then spray dye and lacquer the jacket.

 

[Southoftheborder]

That's a typical piece of Eastman marketing expediency. Like other high end makers they want to give the public want they want - and they want gorgeous hide in lovely colours for the top money they're paying. To be fair veg tanned can break in quickly and look quite like an original does after several years of hard daily use. GW used to use mostly pigmented hide for his A2s and some people here have commented that they were a bit boring. They weren't as nice looking as the veg tanned aniline ones but they were more original.

 

[mulceber]

That's a typical piece of Eastman marketing expediency. Like other high end makers they want to give the public want they want - and they want gorgeous hide in lovely colours for the top money they're paying. To be fair veg tanned can break in quickly and look quite like and original does after several years of hard daily use. GW used to use mostly pigmented hide fo his A2s and some people here have commented that they were a bit boring. They weren't as nice looking as the veg tanned ones but they were more original.

Yep, I don't blame Eastman at all for using veg-tanned hides. There's a reason all the major makers do it, and it's because it looks nicer. It'd be nice if he was more up-front about what the originals were like, but there's enough good information out there that a person who's interested can find the right answer.

 

[Juanito]

Perhaps but remember that the original A-2s were chrome tanned and in a process that isn't used now. Chrome tanning, even that used in modern (for the most part cheaper) leathers has a very noticeably softer hand and drape than veg tanned leather.

It might freak the snobs out, but cheap chrome tanned modern leather will almost be certainly far closer to the drape of an original A-2 jacket although the leather appearance will be too uniform. That's the trade off, modern veg tanned stuff looks the parts but has an incorrect drape and hand to the leather, modern chrome tanned leather has the right drape but the leather is too uniform in terms of how it looks.

With a modern jacket the catch 22 is that you really want how veg tanned leather looks but with the drape and hand of chrome tanned leather.

The quandary of the modern A-2 repro.

Absolutely 100% true. I have always said that the "inferior" Avirex A-2 and others that are chrome tanned, drum dyed, and pigment finished are far closer to the originals I have had that even the best veg tanned, anniline finished repros.

...and I still can't get over HPA/Eastmans claim that their veg tanned jackets are just like 1942. While I am sure there were exceptions, there was no reason to use veg tanned leather at that time as opposed to chrome tanning.

Ok, off of soapbox...