AERO 21996 SIZE 44 FROM 528TH BS

[CBI]

I am not worried about "value" besides its JUST a nametag

 

[capt71]

My point of view is that if it's a repro, add whatever you want. If it's an original, leave it with whatever was there when found.
Sorry, guess I'm a "purist" at heart.

 

[oose]

Hi,

here is full pic and the info reads as follows



yours stu

 

[CBI]

not a problem - I see your point

 

[capt71]

Stu,
Thanks for the info on the picture. "Beautiful Betsy" was assigned to the 528th BS and flew several missions. She suffered damage and was repaired and relegated to "administrative" flights (ie-"milkruns"). She disappeared with all aboard in Feb. 1945 while on a supply flight and was never found. Then, in August, 1994, wreckage and human remains were discovered in a National Park in the mountains in N. Australia and subsequently identified as "Beautiful Betsy" and it's missing crew. The wreckage is still there in the National Park it was found in. The crew members lost were not the guys in your photo.
Bill

 

[Andrew]

You guys are quick, that's the only 528th shot i've found on FN. Here's the link to the crash info. Two Brit Spitfire Pilots also died. I'd love to visit but it's still a remote location.
http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/ozcrashes/qld89.htm

With all due respect John, it's not just a nametag, it's a 65 year old original jacket. It's often discussed and argued but my personal belieif is that the value of an item is at it's max when it's in it's untouched state, stabilized from further decay but not altered from it's original state. It just doesn't need anything added to it and it can't be improved by doing anything to it. Of course Andrew knows all this.

 

[CBI]

Do you guys then dismiss every WWII aircraft you see at every air museum because it does not have the actual original paint job and often painted in markings that are not from the unit the aircraft was actually assigned to? I guess virtually every air show for many of you is a write-off because the aircraft aren't 100% original (what about the avionics updates). The countless military museums that have composite uniforms with added medals, insignia (in addition to the many veteran "sets"). The list goes on I am aware that a lot of this has to do with refurbishing but.......................

I think the real issue here is having a serious hobby without being 100% purist about it. This kind of gets me sometimes with sites like this and I have to admit that I was having a bit of evil fun here. "Hey, you should put a nametag on it" and we get a series of polite finger waving "oh, that is not OK" . Hey, I would do it, I know others would not, as my 6 year old daughter would say "What-EVER?" I am aware of the antique/historic value. If I owned this great jacket, I would place an aged name on it and probably no one here would/could tell the difference. It does not look complete to me without it whether it's vintage or not, one can see a strip was there however its Andrew's and he can do with it what he likes. The nice thing with something like this is you can remove it easily since you are reusing stitch holes. In any case, its no big deal either way in the grand scheme of it. Sorry I brought it up, really................ (but, good canon fodder).

 

[capt71]

I can certainly see your point, CBI. If you own it you can do whatever you want--paint the whole thing silver if you like . I look at vintage originals differently than you, I guess. To me they are historical artifacts, to others they are not. To each his/her own. As for museum aircraft, it's not quite the same thing. Most restored a/c must be completely rebuilt, repainted, and non-original equipment added. These museum a/c are usually (not always) restored as closely to original colors and markings as possible. Private vintage owner/pilots, on the other hand, may or may not stay true to the historical appearance of their plane. To me a privately owned P-51 flying at an airshow and painted pink would make no difference--it's still a P-51. A vintage leather jacket painted pink by a collector, however.............

No WW2 aircraft stayed with one single unit or command throughout the war. They were transferred from squadron to squadron, command to command, or underwent design modifications, and their colors and paint-jobs/unit markings changed. That's why you may see a WW2 a/c at an airshow or museum with a different paint job than perhaps you saw in an original WW2 photo of that same a/c.

We should all "agree to disagree" at times. No disrespect was intended.

 

[TankBuster]

My point of view is that if it's a repro, add whatever you want. If it's an original, leave it with whatever was there when found.
Sorry, guess I'm a "purist" at heart.

I also agree with these guys and consider myself a purist. I also look at them as pieces of history. I just can't swallow adding anything to original jackets. Just my opinion of course !!

 

[capt71]

You guys are quick, that's the only 528th shot i've found on FN. Here's the link to the crash info. Two Brit Spitfire Pilots also died. I'd love to visit but it's still a remote location. http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/ozcrashes/qld89.htm

http://www.b24bestweb.com/Pics-B-BEAUA-BEAUZ.htm

 

[Roughwear]

As a trained historian my instincts tell me not add a name strip to this jacket. I know I could add a vintage tag using the same stitch holes, but this jacket stays as it is.

 

[Curahee]

Don't mess with it ! what great find Andrew is this your 5th 21996 ? they're getting better and better

(btw is that a crown zip?)

 

[Roughwear]

Yes its my 5th 21996 and the only one I currently own. The zip is a Crown.

 

[CBI]

agree to disagree - sounds good!

 

[Andrew]

If I owned this great jacket, I would place an aged name on it and probably no one here would/could tell the difference. It does not look complete to me without it whether it's vintage or not, one can see a strip was there....

This is the point and it's a collectors worst nightmare, the item which is being sold as a fully original item down the track because everyone's assumed (hoped) beforehand that it is complete and un-messed with. It may have been done with good intent but once it's sold on it would become part of the folklore. Who's name would you put on it anyway? Of all things a namestrip is the worst thing to add as it's the method guys like me use to try to piece back together the item's lost heritage. It's wrong and just unneccesary.

 

[Peter Graham]

Who's name would you put on it anyway? Of all things a namestrip is the worst thing to add as it's the method guys like me use to try to piece back together the item's lost heritage. It's wrong and just unneccesary.

I agree 100%. Leave it alone.

 

[CBI]

If I owned this great jacket, I would place an aged name on it and probably no one here would/could tell the difference. It does not look complete to me without it whether it's vintage or not, one can see a strip was there....

This is the point and it's a collectors worst nightmare, the item which is being sold as a fully original item down the track because everyone's assumed (hoped) beforehand that it is complete and un-messed with. It may have been done with good intent but once it's sold on it would become part of the folklore. Who's name would you put on it anyway? Of all things a namestrip is the worst thing to add as it's the method guys like me use to try to piece back together the item's lost heritage. It's wrong and just unneccesary.

Good points but really, over a nametag???? You put it on (using the old stitch holes), you take it off when you sell it. I think the jacket looks incomplete w/o it. Like an original crusher w/o the eagle insignia (yes, I would buy an eagle to put on that hat). I have to say that where I really land on all of this is knowing that if one were to add the tag that the world would probably not come to an end and that being the case, I don't worry about it one way or the other. "Its wrong", etc. seems kinda strong considering the subject but that's OK, it IS a jacket forum. One can still respect/.be interested in the troops and history, etc. in fact w/o collecting anything. I don't really go into the providence thing with these as some do but that's just my version of the hobby. Of course, I would not do a jacket painting or anything that huge but if there are stitch holes, its fair game as far as I can see (yes patches - OMG!) Andrew, sorry the thread got highjacked as I really did not mean it to be. I have two originals from two collectors who both added patches where there were stitch holes and I will add/have added different patches. Who knows how far back the stitch holes really go? If I ever do sell these jackets, I would clearly state the patches were not original to the jacket or just remove them. These are sturdy wearers anyway and are getting used/will get used (pretty carefully). If I owned some of the great complete painted jackets on this site (like from member Bombs Away) I would not feel the urge to do a thing to them. I don't want to bow out of this back and forth but I don't think I can spend much more time over an issue that I think is ultimately so small. Kind of reminds me of the minutia "wars" over repro details that got so heated. Again, I did not mean to highjack it. Cool jacket and great find. Oh, in case any of you think I am still crazy, remember, I am the guy who takes brand new Good Wears and soaks them in the shower and then puts them in a hot dryer, and THEN re-dyes them :?

 

[johnwayne]

Cant say I've read every entry on this but just to add my 2p's worth - first of all I dont know how you do it Andrew, keep coming up with these gems - it is one lovely A2!! Secondly, to add or not to add a nametag - IMO add one only if you knew the oringal owners name and even then, I'd still be very hestitant, no, leave it exactly as it is.
Hope to see it for real at some point - remember Andrew I know where you live!!!!!!

Cheers
Wayne