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A comparison of two Perry A-2s
- Thread starter Dr H
- Start date
Roughwear said:
Thanks very kindly for the reply, Andrew. Please don't take this personally; I only wish to learn as much as I can here on the forum and keep the good info. separated from the rest:
You sited this ID in a factual manner when, at best, the relationship between an AAF-issue A-2 and the Knopf name is based on SOME similar details found on civilian A-2s produced by Knopf and the fact Knopf made USAF-issue flying jackets after WWII. Right? Concluding Knopf made AAF-issue A-2s from this number, or from any number, requires a fair leap in logic that I just don't see any good argument for, at present. Mind you, it's not as big a leap as Stu from LW would like us to make when he says J. A. Dubow made AAF-issue B-3 jackets, even though no one can present such a vintage B-3 to view and the only AAF-issue sheepskin items we see made by Dubow from WWII are gloves.
I've seen this sort of thing happen many times, even in reference books, where individuals state things they really believe are so but which cannot be documented or hypothesized to a reasonably degree of certainty. John Chapman has made a compelling hypothesis for the ID of Cable Raincoat and a no-name A-2 maker by comparing telltale details on the jackets that really do match up in all key areas, but this Knopf name is rare, and one I can't find on any other government-issue A-2 jacket from which a reasonable comparison can be made, so, to me, your statement seems more speculation or hearsay than fact. Would you agree or not? Thank you.
Respectfully,
Saunders
I have seen pics of civi A2s from this maker and this jacket has almost all the same details. So I'm 99% certain who the maker is. I would suggest you contact JC for more information.
BTW JC is 100% spot on about the no name Cable. I own a 27753 jacket and a Cable from their first contract with a named label and the house features are much the same. It is worth pointing out that there are not only differences within the same contract run from the same maker as well as some differences between contracts from the same maker. Just look at the four Dubow contracts. Obviously documentary evidence would nail it for sure. I'm very happy to accept the Knopf attribution. As you have serious doubts I would be interested to hear about your alternatives.
BTW JC is 100% spot on about the no name Cable. I own a 27753 jacket and a Cable from their first contract with a named label and the house features are much the same. It is worth pointing out that there are not only differences within the same contract run from the same maker as well as some differences between contracts from the same maker. Just look at the four Dubow contracts. Obviously documentary evidence would nail it for sure. I'm very happy to accept the Knopf attribution. As you have serious doubts I would be interested to hear about your alternatives.
Roughwear said:
Thanks for the reply. Presently, we have no documentary evidence, thus no matter-of-fact statements should be made; assumptions based on theory and stated as theory are fully appropriate if the evidence you allude to supports the theory.
Alternatives could be any company we're not familiar with, which includes Knopf. "Almost all the same details" and a post-war contract by Knopf for non-A-2 jackets aren't strong enough pieces of evidence to convince me it was Knopf; theoretically, we could find out, for example, California Sportswear actually made this A-2 contract, or anyone else without a familiar house-style production for A-2s we can readily reference. So, if I saw this civie A-2 made by Knopf, I may agree that it shares numerous production details with this no-name A-2, and I may even subscribe to a working theory that points to Knopf as the maker, but I would never state such a finding as a matter of fact, which is what can be readily believed from your writing. It's the manner of the statement, which I find potentially misleading, that is bothersome to me and, I'd think, the serious collectors who want to know fact from speculation and/or theory.
Saunders
buzzthetower
Administrator
Personally, I cannot prove that Knopf made that A-2 contract. I have seen clear photographs of two jackets they made for the civilian market and the details are identical between the two (details that would be highly surprising to find between two makers, along with the overall shape of the shoulders, sleeves, and most importantly, the collar). Yes, it could have been a contract awarded to another company. I would love to see proof that it were another company.
S.H. Knopf of Boston was making jackets in WWII. I own a D-1 sheepskin jacket that they made, and will offer copies of it.
I would be surprised if they were not making many other types of clothing, just as we see companies like United Sheeplined making M-43 field jackets (I'm not saying they did, but this was a common trend among makers).
We could get a definitive answer from Charles DiSipio, as he spent a large amount of time going through the National Archives to find the original contracts of A-2 jackets. Please don't email him asking for this data, as his intention is to write a book, rather than to give data out through email. We don't know when such a venture make be completed, but that was what I heard would possibly happen.
We also don't know that Fried, Ostermann made any A-2s, but I've seen one document that started the A-2 contract process with them. We have no proof that the 27791 contract was made by Doniger, but I would be impressed to see that proven otherwise. We have no proof that Cable Raincoat made the 27753 contract, and there are subtle little differences between Cable and 27753 jackets (just as there are differences between the Rough Wear 16159 and 27752 contracts). The 1756 contract looks a lot like a Perry to me, but no proof is really offered.
Why were some labels made without the company name? Were final details about the contract not known at the time that labels needed to be produced? That may be why, but we'll never know until someone can show contract details to be sure.
S.H. Knopf of Boston was making jackets in WWII. I own a D-1 sheepskin jacket that they made, and will offer copies of it.
I would be surprised if they were not making many other types of clothing, just as we see companies like United Sheeplined making M-43 field jackets (I'm not saying they did, but this was a common trend among makers).
We could get a definitive answer from Charles DiSipio, as he spent a large amount of time going through the National Archives to find the original contracts of A-2 jackets. Please don't email him asking for this data, as his intention is to write a book, rather than to give data out through email. We don't know when such a venture make be completed, but that was what I heard would possibly happen.
We also don't know that Fried, Ostermann made any A-2s, but I've seen one document that started the A-2 contract process with them. We have no proof that the 27791 contract was made by Doniger, but I would be impressed to see that proven otherwise. We have no proof that Cable Raincoat made the 27753 contract, and there are subtle little differences between Cable and 27753 jackets (just as there are differences between the Rough Wear 16159 and 27752 contracts). The 1756 contract looks a lot like a Perry to me, but no proof is really offered.
Why were some labels made without the company name? Were final details about the contract not known at the time that labels needed to be produced? That may be why, but we'll never know until someone can show contract details to be sure.
This is an excellent and measured reply John. The construction details of the 1756 jacket are remarkably similar to Perry A2s. There were only three contractor who made A2s in 1944 from when the 1756 contract was issued-Dubow, Bronco and Perry. There is a document that adds great weight to the Perry argument.
It is dated 13 June, 1944, from Maj. Gen B.E. Meyers, Office, Assistant Chief of Air Staff, Materiel, Maintenance and Distribution shows the following information about A2s
So the Dubow contract would have been the 1755 contract and the next contract was the 1756 which I suggest was made by Perry. It would seem that both contract were placed on 13th June 1944, with the Bronco contract placed shortly afterwards.
It is dated 13 June, 1944, from Maj. Gen B.E. Meyers, Office, Assistant Chief of Air Staff, Materiel, Maintenance and Distribution shows the following information about A2s
So the Dubow contract would have been the 1755 contract and the next contract was the 1756 which I suggest was made by Perry. It would seem that both contract were placed on 13th June 1944, with the Bronco contract placed shortly afterwards.
buzzthetower said:Personally, I cannot prove that Knopf made that A-2 contract. I have seen clear photographs of two jackets they made for the civilian market and the details are identical between the two (details that would be highly surprising to find between two makers, along with the overall shape of the shoulders, sleeves, and most importantly, the collar). Yes, it could have been a contract awarded to another company. I would love to see proof that it were another company.
S.H. Knopf of Boston was making jackets in WWII. I own a D-1 sheepskin jacket that they made, and will offer copies of it.
I would be surprised if they were not making many other types of clothing, just as we see companies like United Sheeplined making M-43 field jackets (I'm not saying they did, but this was a common trend among makers).
We could get a definitive answer from Charles DiSipio, as he spent a large amount of time going through the National Archives to find the original contracts of A-2 jackets. Please don't email him asking for this data, as his intention is to write a book, rather than to give data out through email. We don't know when such a venture make be completed, but that was what I heard would possibly happen.
We also don't know that Fried, Ostermann made any A-2s, but I've seen one document that started the A-2 contract process with them. We have no proof that the 27791 contract was made by Doniger, but I would be impressed to see that proven otherwise. We have no proof that Cable Raincoat made the 27753 contract, and there are subtle little differences between Cable and 27753 jackets (just as there are differences between the Rough Wear 16159 and 27752 contracts). The 1756 contract looks a lot like a Perry to me, but no proof is really offered.
Why were some labels made without the company name? Were final details about the contract not known at the time that labels needed to be produced? That may be why, but we'll never know until someone can show contract details to be sure.
Thank you for taking the time away from making beautiful A-2s to render this informative reply of great objectivity, John. Per my previous post, I agree with your opinion on Cable Raincoat and the 27753 A-2s, and I may agree with you on Knopf if I had the chance to view what you have seen. I've never seen a Knopf D-1 jacket. Any special reason you picked Knopf to copy? I've also never seen any documentation on any contracts. Charles at HPA and I have met and we've spoken many times, though he purposely doesn't say much at all with respect to the sort of details we're speculating about here, just that he dug out this sort of stuff over the course of years traveling around the country to numerous archival repositories. He did say that such things were all part of a book project he began researching many years ago and that he continues to research; I'd imagine he fits this work in where he can since writing is not his full-time job.
You mention seeing evidence of the initial phase of an A-2 contract from Fried Ostermann, yet we have never encountered that name on any A-2s. Well, I recall seeing a few documents for contract awards for some M-41 Field Jackets that Chuck Lemons didn't have in his manuscript. I mentioned this to Chuck via a friend and Chuck reported that contracts were canceled sometimes and those I saw may have later been canceled. He double-checked his contractor info. against awards that were actually paid and the names I mentioned did not appear. This makes one wonder if some contracts were later canceled or if some contracts were for quantities very, very few in number, thus none have yet surfaced. I suppose it's also possible that if only a small number of jackets were made in a contract and the entire run was shipped to an overseas location on just one or two ships, the ship(s) could have been sunk and that ended all evidence of jackets from that contract. Considering all the ships that were sunk around the world, I'll bet there's a treasure of answers to many interesting historical questions at the bottom of the sea.
Saunders
Paul, There were many makers producing A2s in 1944, but these were not issued jackets! The USAAF appear to have placed their last orders in the summer of 1942 for A2s. This is clear from the sequence of order and contract numbers. It is likely that production of some of the later contracts ran into 1943 (not just the fiscal year). I have yet to see evidence of orders being placed in the 1943 calendar year for A2s for new contracts.
However, in June 1944 the USAAF issued three orders for A2s from Perry, Dubow and Bronco. They were perhaps replacements for existing jackets and are usually found in size 36-40. The orders were placed around the same time and had an entirely new series of numbers-W33-038 followed by AC1755 for the Dubow, 1756 for Perry and 1761 for Bronco. There are no other examples of recorded contracts that can be dated to 1944. I would be interested to learn of any others apart from the civi A-2s which continued to be made by numerous makers.
However, in June 1944 the USAAF issued three orders for A2s from Perry, Dubow and Bronco. They were perhaps replacements for existing jackets and are usually found in size 36-40. The orders were placed around the same time and had an entirely new series of numbers-W33-038 followed by AC1755 for the Dubow, 1756 for Perry and 1761 for Bronco. There are no other examples of recorded contracts that can be dated to 1944. I would be interested to learn of any others apart from the civi A-2s which continued to be made by numerous makers.
