Steerhide?

[RCSignals]

i've been searching the forum and found many references to steerhide but no single discussion of it's authenticity for Wartime issue A-2s.

I've seen this at Acme Depot Click

While the official specification called for horsehide, and while most jackets probably were so made, there was a notable fraction of A-2's made of goatskin and perhaps other hides such as steer. Consultation with a number of independent leather scientists (not tanners or sales people) resulted in learning that once the hides have been processed it is virtually impossible to tell the difference between horse and steer; it can't be done visually, and a positive ID might well require expensive DNA testing. The differences in the grain of goatskin, by comparison, are relatively easy to discern from the other hides.

I find such statements that do not give specific researchable references difficult to accept at face value.

I'm not suggesting steerhide was never used, but also can't find any reference that it was.

Having seen steerhide jackets, and having seen and felt a steerhide Eastman A-2 Pearl Harbour (a very nice jacket), I find it difficult to believe that it is 'impossible' to tell steerhide from horse.
There would seem to be obvious differences from feel, grain, even smell.


Does anyone have any true evidence that steerhide was used for issued jackets, or acceptable by specification as an alternate to Horse as Goat was?

 

[RCSignals]

Well I found this

from Horween blog

Gives what is (for me) a good explanation that Horse is recognisably different from Steerhide

in part

When comparing horsehide to cow/steerhide, there are big differences. Horsehide has a coarser grain, huge differences in weight (even across the same hide, and generally is lighter/thinner), is more abrasion resistant, has a different fiber structure, and displays much more variation and natural markings.

Still would like to know about the A-2 and steerhide

 

[better duck]

This is so funny if you have been a member of this community for at least a couple of years. When I joined some four years ago (that long already huh?) this was a hot topic. We had several members who had extensive experience working with hides and although the discussion has never been brought to a definitive conclusion, there was an opinion (from one of those experienced members), that the differences between cow/steer and horse are not detectible by eye or even on the molucular level, once a hide has been tanned.
As to the question whether steerhide was used in producing A2's and other jackets in WW2: that is still open to debate, no definitive answer there either, I'm affraid.

My personal opinion is this: if we could be arguing forever about the difference between those hides - and not see it with our eyes,
a) why would we care now? (BTW: all my jackets, except for the older ELC's) are genuine HH)
b) who would have cared in WW2, when there were tens of thousands of these jackets to be made and they were made in goat as well, which looks quite different from horse: anybody can see that. I don't see how or why there would have been any qualms about using steer as well.

Now let's see how - if - this topic will rage as hotly again as it used to in the olden days.....

 

[watchmanjimg]

This is so funny if you have been a member of this community for at least a couple of years. When I joined some four years ago (that long already huh?) this was a hot topic. We had several members who had extensive experience working with hides and although the discussion has never been brought to a definitive conclusion, there was an opinion (from one of those experienced members), that the differences between cow/steer and horse are not detectible by eye or even on the molucular level, once a hide has been tanned.
As to the question whether steerhide was used in producing A2's and other jackets in WW2: that is still open to debate, no definitive answer there either, I'm affraid.

My personal opinion is this: if we could be arguing forever about the difference between those hides - and not see it with our eyes,
a) why would we care now? (BTW: all my jackets, except for the older ELC's) are genuine HH)
b) who would have cared in WW2, when there were tens of thousands of these jackets to be made and they were made in goat as well, which looks quite different from horse: anybody can see that. I don't see how or why there would have been any qualms about using steer as well.

Now let's see how - if - this topic will rage as hotly again as it used to in the olden days.....

I doubt the guys in WW2 would have cared, and in my opinion we shouldn't care either. Presumably we know what hide we're getting when we order repro jackets nowadays, and I assume most of us would be thrilled to death to find an original in good shape regardless of the hide. I agree with RCSignals that the Acme Depot claim, at least as stated, appears to have been based more on Kentucky windage than any verifiable research. If true, the notion that any difference in the hides can only be determined (if at all) by scientific analysis only further marginalizes the issue.

 

[Jaydee]

I submit the following...The nose test:
Vintage hides-

Horse - Spicy Curry type odor
Goat - Sweet and fragrant almost like a very light cologne with a goaty (think goat's milk) aftersmell
Cow - Absence of the above aroamas plus a tinge of barnyard smell

*For entertainment purposes only*

 

[RCSignals]

I agree that Airmen of WW2 wouldn't necessarily care, or possibly even care or know what manufacturer their jacket came from. Some possibly might prefer goat over HH or vice versa.

The government contract though would specify exactly what was acceptable, and usually changes go through an approval process, such as the change from silk lining to cotton. The specification is noted. I'm still not finding anywhere a spec change/codicil for the specification regarding Steerhide.

I still have difficulty believing that no one, tanners or leather workers, can tell the difference in these hides. Horween doesn't agree, and jacket makers I've talked to don't agree. I'd wonder about leather workers who couldn't tell what they were working with.
That seems to be a convenient excuse for those who want to pass off steerhide as horse or just don't want to believe for whatever reason they are different.
Maybe there will never be a resolution, but you would think by now there would be some evidence to support steerhide being used for wartime manufacture of A-2s.
I realise it is not a huge issue, but it is a point of keeping history as accurate as possible.

 

[deeb7]

... I'm still not finding anywhere a spec change/codicil for the specification regarding Steerhide.

... and I don't think you will, if there was evidence out there, one of us would have found it by now. There is reproduced on page 105 of Suit Up, a 1932 Wright Field memorandum report regarding horsehide, and lamb shearling. One of the Conclusions and Recommendations is as follows:

• 2. The supply of horsehides is limited and substitute standards of sheep and calfskin leathers should be available for emergency use.

I have no idea whether the odd piece of cow snuck in, but I'm guessing that when the horsehide shortage became apparent, goatskin was found to be the acceptable substitute. With entire contracts made in goatskin, it must have had official recognition.

 

[RCSignals]

... I'm still not finding anywhere a spec change/codicil for the specification regarding Steerhide.

... and I don't think you will, if there was evidence out there, one of us would have found it by now. There is reproduced on page 105 of Suit Up, a 1932 Wright Field memorandum report regarding horsehide, and lamb shearling. One of the Conclusions and Recommendations is as follows:

• 2. The supply of horsehides is limited and substitute standards of sheep and calfskin leathers should be available for emergency use.

I have no idea whether the odd piece of cow snuck in, but I'm guessing that when the horsehide shortage became apparent, goatskin was found to be the acceptable substitute. With entire contracts made in goatskin, it must have had official recognition.

Is that text on a site somewhere?

I can see sheep shearling being substituted for lamb shearling but can't see calfskin being substituted for horsehide.
We know goatskin was definitely used.
Of course Conclusions and Recommendations of a Memorandum is not necessarily adoption or implementation, and a lot can happen in the time period between 1932 (which I assume is still in the development years phase) and War production. It's interesting goat is not mentioned.

 

[deeb7]

Is that text on a site somewhere?

No ... I don't think so.

 

[Vcruiser]

I remember years ago when this horse/steer debate was raging..Ken Calder(Aero Leather) claimed that he could distinguish horsehide from steerhide..easily..without the aid of any scientific test...and that 'DNA as the only way' was a bunch of bunk. He also offered a pretty hefty reward to anyone who could produce an issued WW2 A2 in steerhide...and prove it as such.
Van

 

[Steve27752]

Oh no.....................................Here we go again :roll:

 

[philip.ed]

So why is horse-hide favoured over steerhide, then? If there's no way of telling, surely everyone who buys repros are just taking the manufacturers word as gold.

 

[Weasel_Loader]

I kind of wonder that too. It's not that I don't trust manufactures, but why do we demand horse hide, when apparently, cowhide is no different in appearance and looks? Certainly, it would be cheaper to obtain than horse.

Anyone have one of JCs or ELC cowhide A-2s to compare?

 

[deeb7]

... why do we demand horse hide, when apparently, cowhide is no different in appearance and looks?

It seems to behave differently, better at moulding to the wearer, and in the way it creases. Cordovan shoes, for example, develop a crease pattern quite different to that of calf.

 

[better duck]

but why do we demand horse hide?

I have been led to believe that maybe abbrasion resistance might have something to do with it. Both HH and GS are high on the scale in that regard, kangaroo hide being the highest. (modern day topline motorcycle suites are made of kangaroo)

 

[Weasel_Loader]

Speaking of kangaroo.

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-WWII-THEAT...tDomain_0&hash=item255fd31265#ht_12906wt_1141

Nice looking example of a theater made jacket. I'm sure this was a very profitable business to outfit pilots and airman with equipment lost. I actually have a Pops Leather A-2 from Incirlik, Turkey that serves pilots in the same capacity.

 

[chancerider]

but why do we demand horse hide?

I have been led to believe that maybe abbrasion resistance might have something to do with it. Both HH and GS are high on the scale in that regard, kangaroo hide being the highest. (modern day topline motorcycle suites are made of kangaroo)

Horsehide does rate higherer in abrasion resistance then cowhide is what I've read. Kangaroo and deer have the highest/best abrasion-resistant properties.

What I have read and been told - and this may only be receive wisdom - is that while the original A2 spec called for horsehide...by the time actual wartime production cranked up to churn out big #'s...mostly cowhide was used. I dunno.

 

[Roughwear]

As far as A2s are concerned goatskin is more robust than horse hide, being less prone to abrasion.

Would someone please scientifically test all the surviving wartime A2s to prove one way or the other whether cowhide was actually used. Unless this is done or someone finds conclusive documentary evidence for the use of cowhide the debate will just go on and on without any resolution. :roll:

 

[Vcruiser]

..."mostly cowhide was used"..I dunno.


...Now THAT is funny!

 

[Willy McCoy]

I can just see an office in the AeroMedicalLab 1942 at Wright Field that has long tables of experts sampling the delicate bouquet of animal hides when this debate comes up. Perhaps a fine cigar afterward?
I'll apologize in advance if my humor doesn't translate well.