Nice 14th Air Force Patches

[a2jacketpatches]

Friend of mine from the swap meet is selling these, I just checked em out and they're right as rain and never used. If ya bid, tell him Sean sent ya.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-ERA-LEATHER ... 2c8a309878
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-ERA-CLOTH-P ... 2c8a30add2

 

[unclegrumpy]

Boy, I don't have a good feeling about either of those.

The 14th AF is really tough without handling it, because they have made so many good copies of it over the years. This one looks a lot like one of the ones that came out of Mexico many years ago, but I don't feel certain enough to say one way or the other.

The only originals of the 349TH Bomb Squadron I have seen that I knew were good were on leather, not embroidered. That does not mean original embroidered ones don't exist, but I do know a lot fake embroidered ones do, and that scares me.

Would be interested to hear what tankbuster thinks on these two. They make me queasy, but then again I have a few patches of my own that would do that as well if I did not know exactly where they came from. Sometimes that makes all the difference.

 

[shedonwanna]

The 14th patch looks much better than the ones out of Mexico. The cloth patch is the 349th BS which was 100th BG 8th AF. The vintage 349th patches I've seen were embossed leather. Both patches are unique, that is I have not seen other examples and without provenance I would not bid too high on these. Both are well made and worth more than the starting price.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

I didn't research to compare with original but the 14th is nothing like those Mexican patches IMO. I've seen many or those before and they're made of pig skin and very crude. The cloth patch is a hand guided embroidery and I could pretty much duplicate it if I wanted to. That being said, I guess I reall didn't think of the possibility of these being repros but very possibly so. I held them this morning and if they came out of a shoe box for 5 bucks each I'd jump right on them. Nothing says fakes first hand. But he did say that he paid a pretty penny for them from a dealer so there it is, a little scary.

 

[unclegrumpy]

There have been a number of different batches of patches to come out of Mexico over the years, some really well executed and some not.

This particular 14th AF is a tough one, because it exhibits some traits of being good, but also some that are not consistent with patches made in the CBI or during the war years. I think what it really illustrates, is how difficult it is to determine the originality of many of these patches, especially as time marches on and they get separated from their original owners.

I agree it is a nice patch, that would look good on someones jacket, but it is not one I would feel comfortable shelling out the price of a known original for.

As I said before, I might feel differently if I held it in my hands. I will also say that in my experience, buying squadron patches, unless they are cheap, based on hope usually leads to disappointment.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

I let the guy know what was said here and asked where the patches came from. He said the guy he got them from gets a lot of stuff from Mark Hall-Patton at the museum, that's the older gent you see on Pawn Stars with the white beard. He can't be sure it was just a guess. I do know that the embroidered cloth patch would be an awful lot of work to be a fake and not really worth the money unless it fetched 500- or so. The 14th could very well be a fake, if I had it right now I'd check hoe rigid the pain was and if it cracked or not. The leather was vegetable tanned or very similar.

 

[TankBuster]

I agree with UG. Both patches seem a little off. The 14th patch seems to have a glossy type finish that I am not familiar with. Honestly though I am not as concerned with the 14th patch as I am the 2nd patch. That one does not look like the other patches I have seen from the unit. Just my opinions of course. I guess to sum it up I would say the 1st patch has a chance, but bid accordingly. The 2nd patch in my opinion is no good.

 

[shedonwanna]

Anyone turned a black-light on the cloth patch?

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Anyone turned a black-light on the cloth patch?

Actually, I think he does have a black light. Anyone who would take the time to embroider that patch is probably sure to use cotton anyway. At first look they has me fooled but I didn't bother to look up originals. The 14th is a goof fake for sure and again, if in my hands without him watching, I'd be picking at it with a pin magnifyer, etc. But I only looked at it for a few seconds.

 

[unclegrumpy]

Don't beat yourself up over these. I think that the hardest thing to acquire, is the knowledge base to know the patches that are absolutely good or absolutely bad. With that, you are still maybe only half way there, because you can't know everything about what every unit wore or everything about every fake ever made.

However, I would say after years of looking, the real ones have always been scarce to find in the bush. Most, if not almost all of the patches encountered, end up being fakes, or so close to fakes to that they are indistinguishable. This 14th AAF patch is a good example of that.

Experience with these patches breeds a heathy degree of skepticism, because more often than not, when you gamble, you end up with a clunker....and I have plenty of proof....learning experiences :shock:.....in my junk box of that.

I think you will be right more often if you make the assumption everything you find is bad from the start. That is hard, because your sub conscience wants everything to be real. The good thing with this approach, is the really good ones do tend to jump out at you....it just does not happen very often....not very often at all.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

About two weeks ago there was a CBI grouping that we were both looking at and he asked my opinion, basically just a jacket with that typical chain stitched looking CBI and standard embroidered AAF but it was X stitched on with thick yellow thread. There were three crew wings and a few other doo-dads. I tried to help him out with the vendor because he was asking a ridiculous 600- I told the vendor to take the 200- and run. Anyway, come to find out, the quote included a 500- watch tucked in there somewhere by the buyer that I wasn't aware of and I felt a little bad that I was busting the vendors chops. I even went as far to find a comparable group on Ebay that sold for a little over a hundred an email him the link.

So when I saw this guy again a week later he told me about the watch and that he did end up buying the grouping. I assumed the two patches were just another thing he didn't tell me about after tucking them in a pocket or something like the watch. Guess what I'm saying is my original assessment was based on these being in a right as rain grouping and only looking at them for a few seconds. If I had any idea that they came second hand from Mark at the museum that would have instantly raised the red flag because they are passing the hands of two dealers already. Or if I took the time to look them up to find nothing else like it that would tip me off as well. But if they had come out of that grouping I wouldn't have question for a moment. Rarely am I fooled by anything, and that's because of how I buy, out of the woodwork and cheap. The last real patch I bought was that 50 mission Italian made I posted here on the forum for 3 bucks.

I'm actually much less than half way of knowing if absolutely good or bad. But my success rate purchasing at no more than 30% and usually much less than that of value is very high. I just don't have the luxury of buying for my interests, that would be Squadron Patches and Wings and the only safe way for that is through reputable dealers at premium prices. That 50 mission is the first Squadron "type" patch since a couple of years ago buying a good Navy Squadron out of an estate for 25-. Otherwise, nothing. I've seen many fakes in the hands of non specialized dealers and just walk away. A guy in Orange, CA has a booth full of stuff ran out to his car and came back with a handful of those 80's painted patches, he wasn't happy to hear what I had to say and just put his head in the sand. I'm sure he's still trying to move them as real. And every once in a while there will be a patch in a case somewhere and like you say, always a fake.

So I was a little disappointed that this guy had me go to bat for him while he hid the watch from me. It made me assume the patches were there as well and he just pulled them out a week later as if they weren't. I'll be flying solo now without exceptions like I usually do.

 

[unclegrumpy]

From what I can see, you have done an excellent job assessing things, and making really good decisions....many under the pressure of the moment. You have a knack for getting close to the source, and that is always one of the best initial indicators.

I will say in counterpoint to that....the point about getting close to the source, I looked at a pile of stuff earlier in the summer that came directly from a WW II AAF and KW USAF vet that had the potential to be great....really great However, it turned out to be his stuff and his "collection" mixed together.

There was some great stuff that came out of his trunks...uniforms, flight jackets, wings, and patches....the bulk of it mostly original, but also the bulk of it enhanced....with higher rank, valor ribbons, rare wings, cool patches, repairs....all applied by him in the 70's, 80's, and '90's. He did it for his own enjoyment....he wore most of the stuff...and not to fool anybody, but it could and would really fool people now....a couple of his creations got a lot of love on the Military Forum....I bet he was smiling from above!

To be fair, this is more an example of what can happen even with a great story....directly from the vet, stored in his trunks for years, worn by him.....and how difficult it can be to judge things, especially once they get split out of the pile.

I think you are doing great out there....both finding cool stuff and fending off all the a'holes.

 

[a2jacketpatches]

Amen!