Interesting detail about Hilts' A-2

[Greg Gale]

Nothing new in here, really. I've just been looking at photos of McQueen in The GreatEscape, and I discovered something - something that's not new to anyone, but I thought it would be interesting to point out and share with you. It's not meant to start any discussion about "proper fit", we all know it varied massively, don't we? It's more about pointing out a "feature" of our beloved A-2s that many tend to ignore, or regard as a defect - including me from time to time. Let this be a sobering reminder of what A-2s are really like

So McQueen is wearing a RW (27752? 16159?), quite a generously sized one, definitely not on the trim side, sleeves tunneling and all (Even if wearing the jacket unzipped relaxes the shoulders and makes the sleeves a tad longer)

But let's see what happens to the sleeves when he folds his arms, or raises them:

Sitting down only exacerbates the phenomenon:

and now, look what happens when he wants to pick up his baseball:

Also, when he raises his arms, the jacket raises with them!

I thought it would be nice to have these pictures in one thread, sorry if I wasted anyone's time

 

[Technonut2112]

The jacket isn't 'generously sized' IMO, it just happens to be the pattern of that particular jacket, and looks to be a good fit considering that. Actually, there were not that many contracts which can be considered 'trim' fitting, especially in the sleeves. Just look over the fit pics of JC's pictured contracts, and it becomes clear. Here's a rundown of fit descriptions from his site:

Bronco: This jacket is of a very slender and athletic design.

Doniger: easy fitting torso and wide, comfortable shoulders

Spiewak: This pattern has a comfortable body in the chest and waist area, and slender sleeve ends. The shoulders are roomy and square.

Dubow 20960: The body pattern is quite similar to the later 27798 shape, with the torso being just a tiny bit trimmer. This pattern works best with a relatively athletic physique, though larger sizes in originals have much wider bodies from the chest down.

Dubow 27798: Another detail unique to Dubow is that they made the sleeves quite wide at the top, and then the back panel more narrow than most A-2 makers. The wider sleeve tops more than make up for the more narrow back panel, so the jacket is generally more comfortable to wear than most other A-2 contracts.

Monarch: The fit is slender but comfortable. The jacket has inset sleeves, which allow for slightly more easy of arm motion. The collar hole is a bit smaller like a Dubow, and the front of the collar lays low on the body panels.

Perry: The Perry design is very athletic and sharp, which compliments those who wear it. It's also roomy in the shoulders and sleeve tops, more like a modern jacket.

Poughkeepsie : The pattern is very smart, and quite comfortable. The shoulders and arm holes are roomy. The collar has a smaller profile, but the hole is large, so the collar won't hold tight to one's neck.

Rough Wear 18091: easy fitting torso and somewhat tight shoulders

Rough Wear 1401-P: Comfortable torso

Rough Wear 27752: Roomy torso / This jacket is quite comfortable and looks athletic and sharp.

Star: This jacket has a rather modern fit and is snug and comfortable.

United Sheeplined: wide torso and comfortable shoulders/arms

1939 Werber: The pattern is snug in the waist, but trim yet comfortable in the chest and shoulders.

1941 Werber: The Werber design is form-fitting and athletic, with wide shoulders (and long epaulets). The body is trim and somewhat slender just over the waistband, compared with other makers like Aero or Rough Wear. We have used four originals to create our patterns, and some were a little bit short in the body, yet one had a relatively common body length, which we prefer.

Aero 16160: The fit of this contract is comfortable, and has reasonable dimensions of the shoulders, chest, and sleeves, with good sleeve length and body length.

Aero 18775-P: easy fitting torso and shoulders

No-Name 42-18246-P: This A-2 pattern is sharp, comfortable, and very athletic looking. The shoulders are square and wide, and the torso is a little tighter than others just above the waistband. And the actual height of the waistband is a bit more than most other makers, too.

No-Name W535-ac-27753: The pattern is the most comfortable fitting of all that we make, with large wide shoulders, large arm holes, roomy arms, and a roomy body. It's not a baggy pattern, but looks smart. It was good enough for MacArthur, who wore one during the Korean War (use Google/Life Magazine to see huge photos) and everyone who has tried on our pattern agrees that the fit is fantastic and easy to wear

 

[Greg Gale]

Thanks for collecting those. My point was that even if this jacket is not "too small" nor "too short", and according to JC it has an "easy fitting torso", it still manifests these characteristics.

 

[Technonut2112]

My 'keeper' jackets are sized properly, and I am able to reach out without having the 'high-water' look, or tunneling to the point of not seeing the cuffs when the arms are relaxed.

 

[Greg Gale]

I was worried someone would bring the expression "properly" to the table, ans said so in the OP. I wouldn't have expected it so soon. Never mind.

 

[Technonut2112]

How about 'fits like I'd expect a $1,000.00+ jacket to' instead of 'properly'?

 

[silvio76]

In my opinion jacket looks good on him.

 

[Technonut2112]

I think it looks good as well. I'm sure that a lot of thought went into that look for Steve in the film. Who knows how many different jackets were tried before deciding upon the RW..

In extreme stretching and reaching movements, the sleeves / cuffs WILL pull up...just the nature of the beast. My definition of 'proper' in this context basically means that some cuff shows when the arms are relaxed, and do not pull up past the wrist-bones when reaching-out for a steering wheel, or other normal daily activities which involve moderate reaching. IMO, that's not asking much when throwing down the $$ these jackets cost, and should be totally controllable when purchasing new, or even 2nd-hand with accurate measurements available. In fact, the cuffs seem to be designed sort of like a bellows for just this reason..

 

[Silver Surfer]

a hula hoop would look good on steve mcqueen, regardless of its size.

 

[Greg Gale]

In my opinion jacket looks good on him.

Nobody questioned that. It does look very good on him. I merely tried to demonstrate the "nature of the beast" as Technonut put it.

I understand some don't like it when the sleeves pull up, but why would you pay so much for a jacket that has an inherent feature you dislike? If I exaggerated a bit, I would say: who would buy a Porsche, only to say they want extra room in the trunk, because for the money they had to pay, it had better be able to carry a fridge. But this is an extreme example, and I know Porsches have their trunk in the front

Another point to consider is that most of us don't have the height/weight nor chest/ waist ratio of a 22 yr old airman, so most of us will have longer sleeves that comes with the larger chest size, thus reducing this problem. I've only seen a handful period photos where jackets showed "some" cuff, on the rest of them it was more like "most of the cuff, if not all", but that's subjective.

Going back to the point of this thread, riding up has less to do with sleeve length than many would think (see McQueen), it's just part of the deal. Even his roomy fitting RW with plenty of sleeve length does it. No surprise the Navy went with the bi-swing backs. I have a Levi's Denim jacket that reaches down to my knuckles. When I drive it rides up more than any of my jackets.

 

[silvio76]

Nobody questioned that. It does look very good on him. I merely tried to demonstrate the "nature of the beast" as Technonut put it.

I understand some don't like it when the sleeves pull up, but why would you pay so much for a jacket that has an inherent feature you dislike? If I exaggerated a bit, I would say: who would buy a Porsche, only to say they want extra room in the trunk, because for the money they had to pay, it had better be able to carry a fridge. But this is an extreme example.

Another point to consider is that most of us don't have the height/weight nor chest/ waist ratio of a 22 yr old airman, so most of us will have longer sleeves that comes with the larger chest size. I've only seen a handful period photos where jackets showed "some" cuff, on the rest of them it was more like "most of the cuff, if not all"

Going back to the point of this thread, riding up has less to do with sleeve length than many would think (see McQueen), it's just part of the deal. Even his roomy fitting RW with plenty of sleeve length does it. No surprise the Navy went with the bi-swing backs.

It is normal that sleeves pull up, i do not see any problem with that fact. If someone does not like that, maybe solution of that problem is to buy jacket with longer sleeves or to find another model which is appropriate to his body shape. Agree with you about lenght of the sleeves on airmen, A-2 jacket was working cloth, not fashion cloth. I have 7 G-1 jackets and sleeves pull up on all of them when i stretch my arms.

 

[Greg Gale]

Interesting, even on the G-1s?

 

[Technonut2112]

Strange that many of JC's contracts, which were painstakingly patterned from originals to his size only show 'some cuff' when his arms are relaxed. I know that he has limits on how much length he will add / subtract on both the sleeve and body length depending upon the contract, and feel confident that his repros are accurate representations of the originals.

 

[Greg Gale]

I don't mean any disrespect to JC but I'm afraid he doesn't have the body ratio of a typical WW2 airman either, i.e. it's not his jackets that are inaccurate

 

[silvio76]

Interesting, even on the G-1s?

Yes, that is normal. Try with one of yours. It is not so expressed like on A-2, but sleeves pull up when i stretch my arms.

 

[Greg Gale]

The sleeves of my G-1 are a tad too long, and it has extremely wide shoulders, so it may not be representative, but I believe you.

 

[silvio76]

The sleeves of my G-1 are a tad too long, and it has extremely wide shoulders, so it may not be representative, but I believe you.

All of my G-1 are Avirex and Cockpit, maybe that is the reason.

 

[EmergencyIan]

Steve loved jackets and denim, as well. In fact it seems that he was a clothes horse. Back to denim and jackets: when he buried Bruce Lee, he was wearing his Lee 101j. If you Google: “Steve McQueen Ali MacGraw” you’ll see numberous a photos of Steve wearing a Lee 101lj (StormRider) jacket.

Back to sleeves riding up; when I ordered my A-2 from Good Wear back in 2010, I talked to John about sleeve ride-up with the A-2. Back then, he sent me a vintage A-2 fit jacket with which I noticed a significant sleeve ride-up. We discussed it. This wasn’t a solution offered with vintage A-2’s, but he told me that what he would do for guys who wanted to amend this feature. He would add a little bit of material (more leather) to each armpit area.

- Ian

 

[Greg Gale]

The man had style for sure!

Interesting to know this "behind the scene" solution used by JC. Sounds reasonable!

 

[johnwayne]

I'm pretty much in agreement that SM could wear almost anything and look good, hence his title by many as the 'King of Cool' but re his A2 in The Great Escape, does anyone know whether the film's wardrobe had more than one jacket - not uncommon in film making?