Green B-15C

[bebel]

Hi all,

Here's a very rare green B-15C.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Korean-War-...277?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3aa8b42095

 

[Atticus]

Rare, indeed. For a long time, I thought the only reason for the D version of the B-15 was to have a sage intermediate jacket. It wasn't until relatively recently that I learned sage B-15s began in the late C version.

AF

 

[watchmanjimg]

Rare, indeed. For a long time, I thought the only reason for the D version of the B-15 was to have a sage intermediate jacket. It wasn't until relatively recently that I learned sage B-15s began in the late C version.

AF

Actually I believe this is an OD jacket. Where did you hear that late Cs were sage? Given that sage followed blue this progression would appear to be out of order.

 

[Atticus]

Rare, indeed. For a long time, I thought the only reason for the D version of the B-15 was to have a sage intermediate jacket. It wasn't until relatively recently that I learned sage B-15s began in the late C version.

AF

Actually I believe this is an OD jacket. Where did you hear that late Cs were sage? Given that sage followed blue this progression would appear to be out of order.

Jim, I didn't hear it. In my post above I used sage broadly as a color. I should have just said "green".

Did the green B-15Cs precede the blue ones?

AF

 

[watchmanjimg]

Rare, indeed. For a long time, I thought the only reason for the D version of the B-15 was to have a sage intermediate jacket. It wasn't until relatively recently that I learned sage B-15s began in the late C version.

AF

Actually I believe this is an OD jacket. Where did you hear that late Cs were sage? Given that sage followed blue this progression would appear to be out of order.

Jim, I didn't hear it. In my post above I used sage broadly as a color. I should have just said "green".

Did the green B-15Cs precede the blue ones?

AF

Geoff:

Sorry to nitpick on terminology, but hear me out and hopefully you'll agree that there's a method to my madness. The green B-15Cs would appear to be the final intermediate jackets produced in olive drab, which was the original nylon color used by the USAF when it broke away from the Army. Depending on the particular model, the OD jackets featured brown mouton and/or brown leather trim as applicable. The jacket being discussed here exhibits both a brown fur collar and leather oxy tab as would have been seen in the predecessor B-15B. As the 1950s approached the USAF sought to assert its own unique identity and thus the blue color was introduced; however, the Korean War no doubt served as a reminder that a downed airman was better off in a more "tactical" color than blue--hence the distinctive gray/green color we know as "sage green."

In conclusion, the progression was OD/blue/sage. This can be observed consistently throughout various types of USAF flight clothing from the late 1940s into the 1950s.

 

[Atticus]

Jim, I agree that the color progression should be from OD to blue to sage. That certainly was the case with the L-2, L-2A and L2B. And the B-15D was certainly sage. In fact, it was so sage it was almost gray. And our involvement in the Korean Conflict was from 1950 to 1953. I may be wrong, but I thought blue jackets appeared well before then. So if our experience in the conflict reminded us about the need for green jackets, then following the progression, the green B-15C should have been sage green.

So the green B-15C must have preceded the blue ones?

AF

 

[watchmanjimg]

Jim, I agree that the color progression should be from OD to blue to sage. That certainly was the case with the L-2, L-2A and L2B. And the B-15D was certainly sage. In fact, it was so sage it was almost gray. And our involvement in the Korean Conflict was from 1950 to 1953. I may be wrong, but I thought blue jackets appeared well before then. So if our experience in the conflict reminded us about the need for green jackets, then following the progression, the green B-15C should have been sage green.

So the green B-15C must have preceded the blue ones?

AF

Yes, the green B-15C preceded the blue ones. However, the blue jackets did not appear well before the Korean Conflict but perhaps either just before or right around the same time. I believe the first blue USAF service uniforms were manufactured pursuant to 1949 contracts, so presumably the actual date of production was at least somewhat later. The wartime period saw a hodgepodge of WW2-era A-2s and B-3s interspersed with OD and blue nylon. I'm still not convinced that any sage jackets made it to Korea during the war, but they were certainly around not too long afterwards although the earlier jackets continued to be worn.

You are absolutely correct that the B-15D was sage as the "D" designation refers specifically to the color change.

 

[Atticus]

Makes sense. And this was what I originally understood. The D jacket was a response to lessons about camouflage learned...or relearned...in Korea.

AF

 

[bebel]

Hi all,

I've been looking for some answer about this question since a long time and never found one: what version of the USAF OD and blue gears were issued in first at the end of the 40s? I always thought that the first one would have been the OD version before the new USAF choiced a distinctive blue in 1948/49. But not 100% sure...

However, some flight suits also have been produced in both colors: L-1A, K-2A, G-4A. And perhaps some other effects. All these are pretty rare on the collection market and not well known by collectors for what I've been knowing.

Watchmamjimg is right telling us that Korean war served as a reminder that a downed airman was better off in a more "tactical" color than blue.

Franck

K-2A and G-4A suits in both colors.

 

[watchmanjimg]

Franck, as always I'm very impressed with your collection. Does the label of the olive drab lightweight nylon suit actually state that it's a K-2A? I'm just trying to develop a clearer understanding of the progression of nomenclature in the earliest days of the USAF.

 

[bebel]

Thank you for your nice words, Jim. But now, almost all my collection is gone by another collector. Keeping only some jackets and helmets. But always interested in the US aviation!

Labels ont the suits. Please, note the "-2" dash in the drawing number on the green version. Perhaps telling us that the green was succeded to the blue? Although the green order number seems to be earlier than on the blue...

:?: :?: :?:

Franck

 

[asiamiles]

Quoting HPA quoting Buzz on the history of the B-15C and its use in Korea:

"The U. S. Air Force Type B-15C Intermediate Flight Jacket replaced the earlier Olive Drab B-15B Flight Jacket beginning in 1950. By 1950, the USAF began changing the color of most of its flying clothing from Olive Drab to Air Force Blue as part of an overall plan to forge a separate identity from the other branches of service, especially the army. The B-15C Flight Jacket was initially produced for a very short period from Olive Drab nylon, but the overwhelming majority of B-15C Flight Jackets were manufactured in a dark blue nylon. Those early O. D. B-15C Flight Jackets, though not great in production numbers, were indeed produced in quantities that were substantial enough to make a very noticeable presence in the first two years of the Korean War, and thus are very typical of what the aircrews were outfitted with in 1950 and 1951 before the blue B-15C Flight Jackets began to show up in greater numbers. Because these early O. D. B-15C Flight Jackets were entirely issued to active aircrews during these early days of the war, extant examples today are extraordinarily rare due to high attrition, making the very rare blue B-15C Flight Jacket actually appear, by comparison, rather common."

 

[Atticus]

Quoting HPA quoting Buzz on the history of the B-15C and its use in Korea:

This sure seems to make sense. I think some of the worst and most pervasive misinformation about vintage jackets comes from reproduction jacket maker's web sites. But the quote above appears to conform well to evidence provided in this thread.

AF

 

[dmar836]

And don't forget the great photos in this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16176

Dave

 

[watchmanjimg]

Thank you for your nice words, Jim. But now, almost all my collection is gone by another collector. Keeping only some jackets and helmets. But always interested in the US aviation!

Labels ont the suits. Please, note the "-2" dash in the drawing number on the green version. Perhaps telling us that the green was succeded to the blue? Although the green order number seems to be earlier than on the blue...

:?: :?: :?:

Franck

Franck, I really appreciate your posting the photos. Presumably the K-2A exhibits the same phenomenon observed in the B-15C, insofar as there were both OD and blue examples produced under the same nomenclature.

 

[watchmanjimg]

Quoting HPA quoting Buzz on the history of the B-15C and its use in Korea:

This sure seems to make sense. I think some of the worst and most pervasive misinformation about vintage jackets comes from reproduction jacket maker's web sites. But the quote above appears to conform well to evidence provided in this thread.

AF

I agree that in this case HPA and Buzz provide very useful information regarding the olive drab B-15C. Given the extreme rarity of this model, I wonder if there were ever as many originals produced as Buzz repros.