Eastman / Aero price gouging on overseas sales

[Jeff M]

To address the issue raised earlier that the cost of doing the paperwork for shipping out of the UK costs more and that this somehow explains US customers being charged 20% base price than UK customers.....
ELC charged me 40.00 for shipping to the US.
YMC, the shop that is selling the same Eastman jacket, charges 25.00 shipping to the US.
Assuming that ELC for some reason has to fill out more paperwork than YMC, i would think the extra 15 would adequately cover the extra time it takes to fill out the forms...to say nothing of 20% of the cost of a new ELC jacket.

 

[John Lever]

We all pay the same price

 

[Jeff M]

The company does not keep the VAT so there is no 20% extra proffit.

ELC is charging (round numbers) 600 to their US customers for an A1....of which 0 % is going to the tax man.
They are selling the same jacket for the same price to their UK customers...of which 20% is going to the tax man.
ELC is therefore making 20% more on their jacket sales outside the UK. (Actually, their extra profit is even higher than 20%. Assuming that half of what they sell their jackets for is going to cover costs of construction, with a 600.00 sale they are earning 300.00 above the manufacturing costs on non UK sales, and 180.00 above manufacturing costs on UK sales.

 

[Otter]

This can be settled quite quickly, does any foreign Eastman customer have a receipt from Eastman, if so, what does it actualy say on it? Foreiign as in non UK / EU.

 

[Jeff M]

We all pay the same price

Yes.

Non UK buyers are in effect paying a portion of the VAT that UK buyers are responsible for..while having no responsibility to do so.
As a citizen of California, I do not think it is your responsibility as a citizen of the UK to pay a portion of my taxes.

Now there may not be anything illegal about that what ELC is doing. Business' are free to charge what they want to and customers free to purchase or not purchase from that company.

But....beyond the whole VAT issue...as has been noted several times now, when directly asked what the situation with the VAT was re; non UK sales, ELC choose to obfuscate with;

""The price you see on the website doesn't include VAT to the US, so the price you see is the price you would pay (plus postage of course)."

Why?
As I said before...don't piss on my leg and try to tell me it's raining.
Give me straight answers to straight questions.

 

[Jeff M]

This can be settled quite quickly, does any foreign Eastman customer have a receipt from Eastman, if so, what does it actualy say on it? Foreiign as in non UK / EU.

Don't you mean UK sales?
We know non-UK won't list a VAT charge. ELC said as much when I asked them about the whole issue.
To whit:
""The price you see on the website doesn't include VAT to the US, so the price you see is the price you would pay (plus postage of course).".

I'm interested in seeing a UK sales receipt. Is there a VAT charge?

 

[Otter]

B2 Roughwear cap Price 69.99, Quantity 1,Sub Total 69.99, UK Shipping 0.00, VAT 11.67. Sorry, no pound signs as I use a US configured keyboard. All figures taken from Receipt ELC 000000752 from 25/10/2011.

 

[John Lever]

The company does not keep the VAT so there is no 20% extra proffit.

ELC is charging (round numbers) 600 to their US customers for an A1....of which 0 % is going to the tax man.
They are selling the same jacket for the same price to their UK customers...of which 20% is going to the tax man.
ELC is therefore making 20% more on their jacket sales outside the UK. (Actually, their extra profit is even higher than 20%. Assuming that half of what they sell their jackets for is going to cover costs of construction, with a 600.00 sale they are earning 300.00 above the manufacturing costs on non UK sales, and 180.00 above manufacturing costs on UK sales.

You are making the assumption that they are not paying VAT. That would be a criminal act.

 

[John Lever]

We all pay the same price

Yes.

Non UK buyers are in effect paying a portion of the VAT that UK buyers are responsible for..while having no responsibility to do so.
As a citizen of California, I do not think it is your responsibility as a citizen of the UK to pay a portion of my taxes.

Now there may not be anything illegal about that what ELC is doing. Business' are free to charge what they want to and customers free to purchase or not purchase from that company.

But....beyond the whole VAT issue...as has been noted several times now, when directly asked what the situation with the VAT was re; non UK sales, ELC choose to obfuscate with;

""The price you see on the website doesn't include VAT to the US, so the price you see is the price you would pay (plus postage of course)."

Why?
As I said before...don't piss on my leg and try to tell me it's raining.
Give me straight answers to straight questions.

Jeff,
Gary never wanted to sell directly to the US from the UK site as it was set up for UK VAT. US customers were directed to HPA as their US agent so all the taxes were paid under US restrictions. This option is still available so why not buy from HPA or is buying direct from ELC and paying UK VAT cheaper ?
If so what's the problem ?

 

[Persimmon]

We all pay the same price

Yes.

Non UK buyers are in effect paying a portion of the VAT that UK buyers are responsible for..while having no responsibility to do so.
As a citizen of California, I do not think it is your responsibility as a citizen of the UK to pay a portion of my taxes.

Now there may not be anything illegal about that what ELC is doing. Business' are free to charge what they want to and customers free to purchase or not purchase from that company.

But....beyond the whole VAT issue...as has been noted several times now, when directly asked what the situation with the VAT was re; non UK sales, ELC choose to obfuscate with;

""The price you see on the website doesn't include VAT to the US, so the price you see is the price you would pay (plus postage of course)."

Why?
As I said before...don't piss on my leg and try to tell me it's raining.
Give me straight answers to straight questions.

Jeff,
Gary never wanted to sell directly to the US from the UK site as it was set up for UK VAT. US customers were directed to HPA as their US agent so all the taxes were paid under US restrictions. This option is still available so why not buy from HPA or is buying direct from ELC and paying UK VAT cheaper ?
If so what's the problem ?

John
The issue for many is both Gary at Eastman and the Aero teams lack's of transparency and the flim flam remarks (Gary)to cover up what he knows is not exactly a clear picture.

Charles at HPA will be buying jackets from Eastman (in bulk or singles/small groups ???) and will not be paying the 20% VAT element charged to retail customers in the UK and mainland Europe.
Equally he is a business man and not a charity so he will have agreed a reseller discount with Eastman (For Aero until recently it would have been the same with shall we say from the recent unfortunate evidence "wide boy" Mark )
Perhaps 1% ? Unlikely. Maybe 5% or more likely 10/15/20%
So there is at least 25-40% approx that HPA have to play with to adjust their margin.
If HPA sell at the dollar equivalent then the US customers are paying the same as the UK/European customers.

However if Gary at Eastman and Aero (in the past and especially NOW) instead of and/or in addition using a third party supplier in that homeland they should at least make it clear on their web site that no VAT has been taken in this overseas transaction if that is the case !!
That way it is clear to all that the overseas customers are effectively paying more for the same jacket(s) as the equivalent European customers.
Gary needs I believe to pay VAT on every transaction made in the UK so are these overseas tranasctions not being subject to VAT ??
Perhaps smart accountants might see a way around this but as you state not to pay VAT is a criminal act
If thats includes the overseas orders as well at his higher profit margin sales in this case then he needs to state this clearly as such under the US/UK laws a rebate can be requested and completed by the overseas customer.

It is all about clarity and then it is up to any customer to pay or not pay both Aero / Eastman prices.
Aero and Eastman can and do sell their jackets and accessories at a rate chosen by them based on various criteria. (profit, fixed overheads, variable overheads etc etc). That is their right.

Let them continue to do so but if one or other of these two companies choose to supply direct to non European overseas customers direct then they must accept they open them selves up to more detailed scrutiny

 

[John Lever]

''That way it is clear to all that the overseas customers are effectively paying more for the same jacket(s) as the equivalent European customers.''
That is where we differ the price is the same.
The home website for Eastman is designed for domestic customers. There is a tab for overseas sales.All UK sales include VAT unless you are buying on a trade basis and are registered for VAT, then prices are listed ex-VAT and VAT is added at the end.
What overseas buyers are requesting is Duty Free Sales as found at Airports or on the plane when buying cigarettes and spirits.
Why should Eastman or Aero offer that ? It would be an accounting nightmare.
Recently I bought some shoes from Amazon US I paid the same price as US customers PLUS UK VAT.

 

[Persimmon]

''That way it is clear to all that the overseas customers are effectively paying more for the same jacket(s) as the equivalent European customers.''
That is where we differ the price is the same.
The home website for Eastman is designed for domestic customers. There is a tab for overseas sales.All UK sales include VAT unless you are buying on a trade basis and are registered for VAT, then prices are listed ex-VAT and VAT is added at the end.
What overseas buyers are requesting is Duty Free Sales as found at Airports or on the plane when buying cigarettes and spirits.
Why should Eastman or Aero offer that ? It would be an accounting nightmare.
Recently I bought some shoes from Amazon US I paid the same price as US customers PLUS UK VAT.

They are asking for clarity,
It si up to overseas customers and domestic customers to accept the prices quoted or not

If it is such an accountancy nightmare (it is not John, its an easy fix ) then they can change their policy to domestic supplier (Europe) only and their jackets are only sold through third party resellers or subsidiary companies.
The recent Aero nightmare shows how hard that is to work.
Both companies choose not to supply only through a third party.
Whilst the UK and US goverments offer a VAT refund exchange programme, why should purchasers not take advantage of it especially given the high purchase costs involved.
Were I based in the US I would as is my right

 

[John Lever]

''That way it is clear to all that the overseas customers are effectively paying more for the same jacket(s) as the equivalent European customers.''
That is where we differ the price is the same.
The home website for Eastman is designed for domestic customers. There is a tab for overseas sales.All UK sales include VAT unless you are buying on a trade basis and are registered for VAT, then prices are listed ex-VAT and VAT is added at the end.
What overseas buyers are requesting is Duty Free Sales as found at Airports or on the plane when buying cigarettes and spirits.
Why should Eastman or Aero offer that ? It would be an accounting nightmare.
Recently I bought some shoes from Amazon US I paid the same price as US customers PLUS UK VAT.

They are asking for clarity,
It si up to overseas customers and domestic customers to accept the prices quoted or not

If it is such an accountancy nightmare (it is not John, its an easy fix ) then they can change their policy to domestic supplier (Europe) only and their jackets are only sold through third party resellers or subsidiary companies.
The recent Aero nightmare shows how hard that is to work.
Both companies choose not to supply only through a third party.
Whilst the UK and US goverments offer a VAT refund exchange programme, why should purchasers not take advantage of it especially given the high purchase costs involved.
Were I based in the US I would as is my right

I know for sure that Aero have a German outlet, not sure about ELC other than Mash. I know that there used to be a tab on the ELC site for overseas customers.
Again the ELC site is for domestic customers hence all the prices include VAT as on all UK clothing sites and all UK shops. As to the ' easy fix ', why should anyone offer duty free sales ? This would necessitate bonded warehouses and customs declarations.
As someone else here said if it's not to your liking then don't buy from them.

 

[Persimmon]

''That way it is clear to all that the overseas customers are effectively paying more for the same jacket(s) as the equivalent European customers.''
That is where we differ the price is the same.
The home website for Eastman is designed for domestic customers. There is a tab for overseas sales.All UK sales include VAT unless you are buying on a trade basis and are registered for VAT, then prices are listed ex-VAT and VAT is added at the end.
What overseas buyers are requesting is Duty Free Sales as found at Airports or on the plane when buying cigarettes and spirits.
Why should Eastman or Aero offer that ? It would be an accounting nightmare.
Recently I bought some shoes from Amazon US I paid the same price as US customers PLUS UK VAT.

They are asking for clarity,
It si up to overseas customers and domestic customers to accept the prices quoted or not

If it is such an accountancy nightmare (it is not John, its an easy fix ) then they can change their policy to domestic supplier (Europe) only and their jackets are only sold through third party resellers or subsidiary companies.
The recent Aero nightmare shows how hard that is to work.
Both companies choose not to supply only through a third party.
Whilst the UK and US goverments offer a VAT refund exchange programme, why should purchasers not take advantage of it especially given the high purchase costs involved.
Were I based in the US I would as is my right

I know for sure that Aero have a German outlet, not sure about ELC other than Mash. I know that there used to be a tab on the ELC site for overseas customers.
Again the ELC site is for domestic customers hence all the prices include VAT as on all UK clothing sites and all UK shops. As to the ' easy fix ', why should anyone offer duty free sales ? This would necessitate bonded warehouses and customs declarations.
As someone else here said if it's not to your liking then don't buy from them.

No one is asking for bonded warehouses (ha ha have you been watching to many Eddie Murphy Beveley Hills Cop movies )
The UK and USA have agreed a VAT rebate for goods purchased.
If the price is acceptable and a transaction occurs if VAT is charged on the transaction it is the right of the overseas individual to reclaim this amount.
Are you stating you don't want people to take this right up because

its harming the UK economy ?
Its harming Eastman/Aero asnd that you believe they will have to raise their prices even higher for the shortfall ?

 

[John Lever]

Just wonder why Brit bashing has become the accepted norm here

 

[Persimmon]

Just wonder why Brit bashing has become the accepted norm here

John
For me it is not about "Brit Bashing" as you put it.
I am disappointed to be accused by you of this

Indeed I really haven't read anything approaching Brit Bashing in the whole thread
I was born in the UK (just in case you need that info)

It is about clarity for all.

Every consumer has the right to buy or not buy a particular product based on their valuation of it in relation to its selling price, the money they have, etc etc

If Non European international purchasers to Eastman and Aero have the clarity to see what is being charged they can make an educated purchase choice.

But / Don't BuY

If there are legal ways to save money I am happy to accept that option is open to some.
I am proud to be British and pay my taxes.

Eastman and Aero are two strong companies and we are lucky that they are based in the UK.
They provide income to the Government through various taxes (Companies, VAT etc) and well done to them.
They provide employment and again well done to them for that
Finally they offer customers in the UK, Europe and Worldwide some great products and lots of choice to satisfy both taste, interest and wealth. Well Done Eastman and Aero

Just offer clarity and fairness. Is that really Brit Bashing ???

 

[Andrew]

Its not Brit bashing John, that'll come if you start winning all the events in the games

I like what I see of ELC gear, I've only bought a couple of smaller items from them in the past (and my receipt for my B-2 doesn't separate out the VAT component although it has a standard quote indicating they're registered for it) but it's plainly not fair to charge a goods and sales tax to anyone outside the Country it relates to. It doesn't make sense and so it seems pretty clear to anyone outside the UK it does just smack of opportunism.

We have a similar tax (Goods and Service Tax) and i know that in my industry (Construction) our services on overseas projects do not include GST. I have no idea what other Internet based retailers do with regard to the inclusion or not of local taxes but here we often hear the moaning of retailers complaining that Internet based imports are killing the local sales as they are cheaper as people buying from OS are not having to pay GST. Some of the big box players have even suggested that another tax be levied on internet purchases (but luckily that was squashed). Perhaps it's not all that less after all if the item still contains taxes from the country of origin.

I suspect that it's just something most punters don't even consider when buying something that's highly desirable and it takes a couple of guys like Matt and Jeff to ask the legit question.

 

[m444uk]

Again the ELC site is for domestic customers hence all the prices include VAT as on all UK clothing sites and all UK shops. As to the ' easy fix ', why should anyone offer duty free sales ? This would necessitate bonded warehouses and customs declarations.
As someone else here said if it's not to your liking then don't buy from them.

John, I fill in my VAT return every quarter. Exports out of the EU are zero rated. All Customs and Excise require as proof of export is you keep the shipping invoice. Very simple.
A duty free sale is when an item is taken out of the EU by the purchaser themselves.

 

[John Lever]

To me this thread is Redtails take 2 minus Jeff. All negative, slandering people of tax evasion who are not here to reply.
Have any of you considered how powerful customs and excise are? More powerful than the police.
Anyone thinking they can charge VAT and then not declare it would be stupid and end up in prison.
I

 

[ButteMT61]

...Have any of you considered how powerful customs and excise are? More powerful than the police.
Anyone thinking they can charge VAT and then not declare it would be stupid and end up in prison.
I

Yeah, it would be like Aero USA taking money and not placing orders, leaving customers hanging...highly unlikely.