Early A-2 ID?

[Wright Field]

I came across this photo from April 1934 while doing other research. Anyone know which jackets they are? Presumably one of the first contracts for an A-2 given that they have a zipper but use buttons on the pockets.
View media item 487

 

[Grant]

Awesome photo! Those are Security Aviation Togs A-2's. So cool how the shoulder seams line up nice and trim and the body length is a little logner than later A-2's.

 

[Wright Field]

Notice the different ways they wear their collars, too.

 

[Lorenzo_l]

Nice photo indeed!
Let's see, none of the A-2s in the picture have snap closures on the pockets, they all seem to have buttons. According to a Andrew on his ELC Werber 1729 review post on the TFL (https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/elc-1933-werber-made-from-their-new-warhorse-hide.81171/) , Werber's 1729 contract of 1932-33 is the first contract to feature snap closures instead of buttons on the pockets. And according to the A-2 Contract list thread on this forum (http://www.vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/a2-contract-dates-up-dated.13491/), Werber's 1729 was the second A-2 contract ever awarded, after Security's (Aviation Togs) 1932's 32-485 contract. Is that how you were to able to figure out that the jackets in the picture were Security A-2s, Grant?
In other words, was there one and one contract only (Security's) that featured button closures on the pockets?
This an education form me!!

 

[Roughwear]

What a great photo! They are as Grant says almost certainly Security A-2s, but could one be one of the 25 made under the first A-2 contract, 31-1897 P. Goldsmith and Sons in 1931?

 

[Roughwear]

Nice photo indeed!
Let's see, none of the A-2s in the picture have snap closures on the pockets, they all seem to have buttons. According to a Andrew on his ELC Werber 1729 review post on the TFL (https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/elc-1933-werber-made-from-their-new-warhorse-hide.81171/) , Werber's 1729 contract of 1932-33 is the first contract to feature snap closures instead of buttons on the pockets. And according to the A-2 Contract list thread on this forum (http://www.vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/a2-contract-dates-up-dated.13491/), Werber's 1729 was the second A-2 contract ever awarded, after Security's (Aviation Togs) 1932's 32-485 contract. Is that how you were to able to figure out that the jackets in the picture were Security A-2s, Grant?
In other words, was there one and one contract only (Security's) that featured button closures on the pockets?
This an education form me!!

Security was awarded the second contract for A-2s after P. Goldsmith. No one has conclusively identified one of the 25 from this contract and there are no known surviving examples.

We now know that Werber's first contract was awarded in 1932, 32-6225 for 600 jackets. These jackets may have had buttoned pockets, but as none exist I don't know for sure. Certainly their second contract, 1729 had pocket snaps.

Here is the most up to date list of early orders for A-2s.


31-1897 P. Goldsmith and Sons, 1931 (25)
32-485 Security (Aviation Togs) 1932 (1666)
32-6225 Werber Leather Coat Co 1932 (600)
33-1729 Werber 1932/33 (probably less than 500)
34-518-P Werber 5 Sept, 1933 (Est.170)
36-1112 P Werber 13 Sept.1935 (550)
37-1119-P Werber 11 Sept, 1936 (Est.620)
37-3061 P Aero 1936/37 (probably less than 500)
37-3891 P H.L.B. Corp. 3 March 1937 (375)
38-1711-P Aero 26 Oct 1937 (1,500)

 

[Lorenzo_l]

Security was awarded the second contract for A-2s after P. Goldsmith. No one has conclusively identified one of the 25 from this contract and there are no known surviving examples.

We now know that Werber's first contract was awarded in 1932, 32-6225 for 600 jackets. These jackets may have had buttoned pockets, but as none exist I don't know for sure. Certainly their second contract, 1729 had pocket snaps.

Here is the most up to date list of early orders for A-2s.


31-1897 P. Goldsmith and Sons, 1931 (25)
32-485 Security (Aviation Togs) 1932 (1666)
32-6225 Werber Leather Coat Co 1932 (600)
33-1729 Werber 1932/33 (probably less than 500)
34-518-P Werber 5 Sept, 1933 (Est.170)
36-1112 P Werber 13 Sept.1935 (550)
37-1119-P Werber 11 Sept, 1936 (Est.620)
37-3061 P Aero 1936/37 (probably less than 500)
37-3891 P H.L.B. Corp. 3 March 1937 (375)
38-1711-P Aero 26 Oct 1937 (1,500)

Thanks, Andrew. So there are 2 contracts that featured button closures and one (Werber's 32-6225) that may have, before the first snap closure contract in 1932-33, i.e. Werber's 1729. So, in principle, the jackets in the picture could be from any of the first three contracts, or is there a way to tell which specific contract they belong to?

 

[Grant]

There's no documentation the first Werber contract had button pockets I'd still bet my money they're SAT's. Again very cool picture!
It's a shame JC stopped offering his SAT reproduction!

 

[Roughwear]

I'm afraid not as we don't know what the Goldsmith and Werber A-2s looked like. Thus any A-2 with buttons is thought to be a Security, but this may not always be correct.

 

[Roughwear]

There's no documentation the first Werber contract had button pockets I'd still bet my money they're SAT's. Again very cool picture!
It's a shame JC stopped offering his SAT reproduction!

I agree. I suspect the Werber had snaps, but until one shows up we will never know for sure.

 

[Wright Field]

Occam’s Razor would suggest it’s unlikely that 4 of 25 Goldsmith jackets would be together for the same photo.
I don’t know enough about any of these to do more than get myself in trouble, but I’d say the zipper pulls you can see are definitely Hookless (I’ve got an ELC Werber). Do you know if the earlier two contracts also used those?

 

[Roughwear]

Occam’s Razor would suggest it’s unlikely that 4 of 25 Goldsmith jackets would be together for the same photo.
I don’t know enough about any of these to do more than get myself in trouble, but I’d say the zipper pulls you can see are definitely Hookless (I’ve got an ELC Werber). Do you know if the earlier two contracts also used those?

My comment about Goldsmiths A-2 was tongue in cheek! These early jackets used Talon No. 7 zips, not Hookless ones, which had been used in the 1920s.

 

[Grant]

Agree with Andrew on the Hookless zip comment. Hookless changed their name to Talon before the first A-2 went into production.

 

[Wright Field]

See? Like I said: just enough to get myself in trouble!
So is Eastman wrong in producing their Werbers with pulls labeled “Hookless”? They claim the name persisted into the early ‘30s.

 

[Roughwear]

See? Like I said: just enough to get myself in trouble!
So is Eastman wrong in producing their Werbers with pulls labeled “Hookless”? They claim the name persisted into the early ‘30s.

Yes they are wrong to use a Hookless zip. Gary knows this and states in his A-2 jacket ID Manual a Talon was used for this contract.

 

[Lorenzo_l]

Agree with Andrew on the Hookless zip comment. Hookless changed their name to Talon before the first A-2 went into production.

Does this mean that ELC's use of the name "Hookless" on their Werber 1729's zipper is (historically) incorrect?

 

[Grant]

Technically they're correct, I've seen Hookless zips in 1920's and early 30's denim workwear, but there's no documented evidence a Hookless zip was ever used in an A-2. If you want to geek out on zips, I highly recommend Aota Mitsuhiro's Zipper Gear.

https://donlonbooks.com/products/zipper-gear

 

[Grant]

Does this mean that ELC's use of the name "Hookless" on their Werber 1729's zipper is (historically) incorrect?

Yes

 

[Wright Field]

Then I want my money back! Lol

 

[Grant]

Nah, just do like the rest of us geeks, swap out the Hookless puller for a 30's fantail Talon (they pop up on ebay now and then) and you got yourself a primo A-2!