bogus cbi a-2

[Silver Surfer]

i sure hope no one here bought that united sheeplined a-2 [the one with the iwaac patch], that was listed for about an hour. sorry, but i didnt ear mark it, because it was a pretty obvious make up job. if i didnt know better, i would have sworn that the chest patch was one of seans, albeit, a little worked on. the bin price was $1500. cheap if it was legit, not so cheap when its bogus. found it. it sold for $1400, and item # was 118016842650

 

[ghq1]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...ifZ6TW1ryUhGvnmi9rIVM%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

 

[a2jacketpatches]

not mine V

 

[Rutger]

i sure hope no one here bought that united sheeplined a-2 [the one with the iwaac patch], that was listed for about an hour. sorry, but i didnt ear mark it, because it was a pretty obvious make up job. if i didnt know better, i would have sworn that the chest patch was one of seans, albeit, a little worked on. the bin price was $1500. cheap if it was legit, not so cheap when its bogus. found it. it sold for $1400, and item # was 118016842650

It'd be a good idea to indicate how to spot it's a bogus jacket for those who want to learn.
If I'd be interested, I'd have it checked over by posting it here, but maybe there are people who are more trusting and would think this to be a once in a lifetime to be grabbed instantly.

Rutger

 

[Jason]

I looked closely too, and thought "you guys are good to pick up on this one!" The only things I could come up with that didn't look quite right was that the ICWATG patch looks a little too shiny, and the stitching around the eppaulettes for the rank bars looks a little too new. Perhaps I'm seeing things that are not there?

 

[ciddu]

It'd be a good idea to indicate how to spot it's a bogus jacket for those who want to learn.
If I'd be interested, I'd have it checked over by posting it here, but maybe there are people who are more trusting and would think this to be a once in a lifetime to be grabbed instantly.

Rutger

I agree - I would like a " bogus spotting lesson"!

 

[unclegrumpy]

I do not see a problem with this jacket or the patches on it. The layered leather India-China Wing, ATC (ICWATG) patch looks like it was made in India, as does the CBI patch. It would be nice to see this one in person to be 100% sure, but I am not seeing anything that indicates to me that this is a put together.

 

[Silver Surfer]

details. yes, the devil is in the details. lets start with the condition of the liner. no wear, none. yes, the condition of the outside is exceptional, and assuming the jacket was hardly ever worn [look at the liner of your four month old repro], there should be some tell tale signs of wear to the liner, ie: collar discoloration, abrasion, fading, etc. keep this in mind for the following. the stitching on the patches is the same wheat color, both on the surface of the patches, and in the liner. if the outside stitching is light colored due to fading, why is the stitching [usually brown, khaki, or od] in the liner the same color? see above. if you look at the jacket, you will notice some stitch holes on the front left side of the jacket [seen on the right as you look at the pic], indicating a blood chit, or inside pocket was sewn through the leather. then if you look at the pic of the inside of that side of the liner, there are no stitch holes in the liner. my concern about the authenticity of the chest patch is the lack of wear, and or fading. if the patch was painted with enamels, there would be minute fissures due to flex, and or leather movement, and shrinkage. if the patch were painted with leather dyes, there would be some, even a little fading due to the nature of the dyes. the surface discoloration appears applied, at least to my eyes. the shoulder patch looks period proper, but there is no "shadow" around it. conclusion? the patch is ok, but applied recently. the us flag on the back? same problem as with the chest patch, the stitching in the liner is the same color as the stitching on the outside. of course, i could be wrong on all of this, but... disclaimer: i looked at this with my mac set up, on my wifes professional film, and video monitors [plural].

 

[Roughwear]

Whilst some of the patches on this United Sheeplined A2 may be post war, I wonder whether it may have been a re-issued jacket-hence the traces of stitch holes where other rank insignia were sewn on the epaulets. Could the patches have been applied late War and the jacket saw very little service and was stored for the rest of its life, preventing fading to the thread? Without a thorough examination of the jacket it is so hard to know for sure.

 

[unclegrumpy]

Whilst some of the patches on this United Sheeplined A2 may be post war, I wonder whether it may have been a re-issued jacket-hence the traces of stitch holes where other rank insignia were sewn on the epaulets. Could the patches have been applied late War and the jacket saw very little service and was stored for the rest of its life, preventing fading to the thread? Without a thorough examination of the jacket it is so hard to know for sure.

I am confident that the patches are original, and not post war. Otherwise, I think this is an excellent assessment of this jacket, especially with the caveat that "without a thorough examination of the jacket it is so hard to know for sure."

 

[Rutger]

It'd be nice with unlimited editing :twisted: : the pics could have been added in the first post of the assesment.
I copied these from the listing for educational purposes, but without permission from the owner. If that's against the rules, I suppose action will be taken.

 

[unclegrumpy]

Wow! Thanks for posting the big pictures!

 

[ghq1]

I get that it may be bogus or not . . but doesn't Goodwear make a United? Is anyone saying the jacket isn't vintage?

I mean either way -- a pristine original or a pristine copy . . and without provenance isn't it a great deal for a pristine original and a pretty good deal for a Good wear repro ($1200 + zipper + tax + shipping + patches)?

If you bought this as an original and you got it and you determined it was a spot on or better Goodwear copy, would you keep it for the condition, large size and the cool patches and save yourself X months of waiting? . . .

 

[unclegrumpy]

In looking in Volume II of "China Airlift - The Hump", by the Hump Pilots Association, on page 473 there is a short biography for a pilot named Kay W. Kroepsch. K.W. Kroepsch is the name on the name tag on this jacket.

Here is a summary of his service:

"Kay W. Kroepsch was in Class 42-K, and from there went to Mohanbari, Assam in March of 1943 to fly the C-47 "Goon". Shortly after that, he transitioned to C-46's and transferred to Tezpur. He was Copilot and hurt in one of the theater's first C-46 crashes, which occurred on takeoff in Kunming on 5/18/43. He later flew C-87's and C-109's, again out of Tezpur. He rotated home in September 1944, and was assigned as the C-47 pilot for the Army Commanding General in Atlanta. He was deactivated in 1947, but returned to active duty in 1950 retiring in 1973."

Also, in the first few pages of this book are photographs of some the patches and insignia these guys wore, including an ICWATC patch exactly like the one on Kroepsch's A-2....which makes sense as we now know he was stationed in several places in India where this style of patch was made. The book also mentions he retired in Florida, which also happens to be where this eBay auction originated from.

I think someone got themselves a very nice A-2, with some now confirmed history associated with it....which can often be very difficult to come by.

 

[Tariacuri]

I think the AF patch on the right shoulder should also be layered leather though this could have been added later?

 

[unclegrumpy]

I think the AF patch on the right shoulder should also be layered leather though this could have been added later?

"Should" might be too strong here. One would probably have expected to see a layered leather AAF patch, as most CBI jackets worn in the theatre tend to have them. But given this fellow rotated home in 1944, this could easily be his second jacket, which he could have been issued to him once he got home. Given his new stateside job was flying Generals around, he probably could not have gotten by wearing the salty wornout jacket he had overseas.

If this jacket was his second, he might not have had an extra theatre made layered leather patch to put on his jacket. Since he wasn't going back to India to buy one, he would have used what was available....the US made patch which is on this jacket. A lot of things start to make more sense once you know a guy's history.

 

[deeb7]

It'd be nice with unlimited editing :twisted: : the pics could have been added in the first post of the assesment.

This again? ... I don't know how it would work, or why it would be better. Most members only read the new posts, so many of us wouldn't notice that pictures had been added. Any comments about the pictures would be on a different page, unless they were quoted ... and quoting pictures does drive me nuts.

 

[Persimmon]

It'd be nice with unlimited editing :twisted: : the pics could have been added in the first post of the assesment.

This again? ... I don't know how it would work, or why it would be better. Most members only read the new posts, so many of us wouldn't notice that pictures had been added. Any comments about the pictures would be on a different page, unless they were quoted ... and quoting pictures does drive me nuts.

Ah technology, technology.
The mysteries of it all !!

It really does work very well in most other Forums around the world.
Guess maybe we really are stuck in the 1940's !!

 

[deeb7]

Ah technology, technology. The mysteries of it all !!

It really does work very well in most other Forums around the world.
Guess maybe we really are stuck in the 1940's !!

I meant how does it work adding to posts out of sequence? What is to be gained from adding to a post on an earlier page, instead of simply posting again?

 

[Silver Surfer]

good work grumpy. based on your research, i may very well be off on the is one. the whole package looked just a little too new, and too good to be true. of some interest is that the icwatc patch is sewn on the left chest. for the most part, i have seen them sewn on the right side chest. live and learn.