Vintage B3 need help with contract please!!!

[warguy]

Hey guys, I am in a position to buy what I think is a vintage B3 jacket in nice condition. The jacket comes out of a long time collection that my friend is consigning. I have seen many pieces from the collection and all looks good so far. It appears to be a very high quality older AAF collection. This jacket is in very nice condition, with all the right wear and I am feeling pretty good about it from an authenticity standpoint. It is a no name contract however and in doing some research on the contract number, I came across a thread here on the forum that discussed B3 contracts. That thread is found here:

B-3 Contract and Order nos

So far this is the list of contract/order numbers that I have gathered together from original jackets. Any additions would be very helpful. Aero 39-5137P AC 17755 AC 18909 (pre-war two tone) AC 19436 (pre-war russet and duo tone) 42-5110p 42-22899p (two tone) 43-13616-AF Arnoff Shoe...

www.vintageleatherjackets.org

In that thread, it claims that the contract for this jacket, which is AC Order No. W535-AC 17812 is a pre war red skin. As you can see from my photos, this jacket is not a redskin and is dyed all seal brown (no contrasting russet on the horsehide). The hide looks clean, really no condition issues that I can see, aside from some slight corrosion on the zipper. So my question to you all is this: Could the info on contracts contained in the above thread be wrong? Where did this information come from? I do know that HLB made a redskin B3 under contract 17811 so was this just an educated guess due to the proximity to that contract? Did the Government red-dye B3’s like they did A2’s, and if so, why would they do that on a jacket that is in really nice shape? You can see the jacket has what appears to be a period service label on it dated late 1944 indicating the jacket is serviceable.There are some early features, like the vertical seam running down the entire length of the jacket. From what I could see in other photos, it does appear there is the welt on the seam between front and back halves of the jacket which I think indicates a touch later feature Than ore-war ones. I did find another label for this same contract while surfing the web. It was a size 38 jacket with the same white ink size stamp on the label. That jacket was described as original, but nothing said about it being a redskin and unfortunately there weren't any photos of the outside of the jacket. Thoughts? Thanks very much in advance to you all. Kevin

 

[Silver Surfer]

Yes, b-3s were redyed, and It could very well be a depot redye, as it looks legit in every way. If you are lucky, the redye was only done in a light pigment once over. I have seen, and owned ones that are like that. If it was redone in poly acrylic, look carefully for cracking, fissures, and excessive stiffness, which would make the jacket fragile.

 

[mulceber]

Really cool B-3! And it looks to be in great condition! I haven't heard about depot re-dyes on shearling jackets, but it would make sense - their situation was the same as the A-2 jackets (getting all greasy and ugly), so there would be no reason not to re-dye them too. The fact that the leather facings on this one are EXACTLY the same tone as the sheepskin panels leads me to think that's what happened. It would be a good idea to examine this jacket yourself to try and verify it:

• look in all the nooks and crannies where it would be hard for the dye to reach (inside the pocket, stuff like that. See if those areas are un-dyed.
• Examine the stitching. If it's the same color as the leather, it's almost certainly a re-dye.
• See if there are any areas where the dye bled onto the fleece. This happened all the time around the collars on A-2 jackets, so it stands to reason there would be some traces of dye on the fleece.

Above all, be careful about buying vintage AAF shearling. It's not unheard of for it to look like it's in pristine condition right up until the moment it falls apart.

 

[warguy]

Mulceber, thanks for your pointers. I contacted my buddy earlier who has jacket in hand and asked him to do the exact same thing you just instructed. It just looks so nice inside and out that I cant believe there was ever enough wear on this to justify a re-finish, but still exploring. I do know that there were B3’s constructed wartime that are all the same seal brown,I have seen a few out there and IIRC one was on Eastmans site as an original “pattern” for one of the Eastmans they sell. They also offer a remake of an all seal B3 with their label on it. I have a couple of other photos of the jacket and I think one with some stitches showing and I will take a closer look. Once again thanks, anyone else with more suggestions or ideas please chime in. Kevin

 

[warguy]

Found this photo I hadn’t posted. I am seeing redskin below that buckle strap. Perhaps it is a re-dye. Thoughts on collectibility on a re-dyed model? I know it doesn’t seem to bother alot of the A2 collectors too much. Sure wish it was the original redskin though if thats what is going on.

 

[Micawber]

Yep, I've had more than one B-3 that had been depot re-dyed, even good jackets were sometimes submitted for refinishing so as to give the garments a continuity of colour across the service.

Jan's excellent pointers are valid but also have a look at the exposed cut edges of the hide as these will have signs of dye. If they are consistently fleshy / light in colour then it is unlikely to have been refinished.

Looking at those additional photos the straps and especially the edges of the keepers show no sign of dye ....but get where the strap is stitched to the body of the garment checked for signs of refinishing.

 

[warguy]

Thanks Steve, what was troubling to me in the above photo is what appears to be a “lack” of re-dye under that strap where it appears maybe the hide remains the original red color. You can see it right under the leather loop or keeper on the strap. Thanks for your reply. I am torn a bit, i have wanted a nice representative B3 for my collection for many years, but I am not sure a re-dye is the one. Probably silly as if done by the depot, it is still a piece of history and I am sure some re-dyes must have seen action, although I am not sure this one did after the refinish.

 

[mulceber]

I've had more than one B-3 that had been depot re-dyed, even good jackets were sometimes submitted for refinishing so as to give the garments a continuity of colour across the service.

Right - it was very much an across-the-board kind of thing. Once they decided to re-dye jackets, they did it to all the jackets that weren’t currently issued to a pilot. Didn’t matter what condition it was in.

Thoughts on collectibility on a re-dyed model?

Not as much as an un-redyed russet B-3, but it’s nothing to sneeze at, especially in that condition.

 

[Micawber]

If it's the right price buy it. Good, original B-3's are getting hard to find. You can always upgrade should another come along at some point.

 

[Silver Surfer]

As Steve wrote, “if the price is right…….”. Do it! If not, ya may consider passing the sellers info on to this thread, as I’m sure that there would be interested addicts.

 

[warguy]

Thanks for all the help, I can appreciate the comment about opening it up to the forum, but this is a huge collection that is being sorted through, organized and stored and I don’t think the seller is prepared to go public yet. Not sure whether I will pull the trigger or not At this time. Sill thinking….

 

[Chandler]

...but this is a huge collection that is being sorted through...

Now THERE's a dangled carrot!

 

[ZuZu]

Right - it was very much an across-the-board kind of thing. Once they decided to re-dye jackets, they did it to all the jackets that weren’t currently issued to a pilot. Didn’t matter what condition it was in.

Where does this information come from? Is this also in Gary's book? I personally haven't seen evidence of an "across the board" thing but rather a slap dash mysterious thing like everything to do with these flight jackets. It seems more like SOME jackets were re-dyed at Army bases- some jackets in good condition were re-dyed, some jackets in rough condition were treated too. It's also obvious that many jackets weren't re-dyed at all. Some A-2s were re-dyed russet color (I've had one) some were various shades of seal. As far as B-3s it seems that re-dyes are the exception rather than the rule. We've seen depot refurbished A-2 jackets which were left russet and just had the roundels put on. It's pretty obvious that by the later part of the war the Army wanted jackets that started out a seal color (also tiny sized) in the 1700 series Perrys, Broncos and Dubows. A lot of this stuff we know by guessing from collections of jackets- there's a speculative element to it. Like the 55j14 red rot thing there's a risk that semitruths become accepted VLJ Lore!

 

[mulceber]

Yep, Gary’s book, p. 98. Mentions it was part of a concerted effort to make the lighter-shaded jackets more useable.

 

[Nickb123]

That is an original? Holy sheep!

 

[blackrat2]

Cracking condition for a B3, well worth a punt at the right money and particularly if it fits