Privately purchased Irvins

[Roughwear]

I have been reading adverts for Irvin Air Chute suits in Flight Magazine. The adverts begin in 1937 and run through to 1940. The suits are identical to those worn by the RAF. The adverts often say: "The suit has been ordered in quantity for the R.A.F., but it will be available for club pilots and private owners who remain faithful to the open cockpit." What sort of label did they put on these private purchase Irvins? (Presumably they would not have an AM contract number on them) Or perhaps they did not put a label on them at all?

As most Irvins no longer have their original label there is no way of distinguishing a privately purchased one from an issued jacket prior to 1940, unless one is lucky enough to know the provenance of the jacket, or it has the airman's name/service number on it. From 1940 the kings Crown and AM were usually stamped on the zip pulls. I suspect they were lacking from privately purchased jackets from this time.

 

[Andrew]

I have a copy of those ads as well and one last one that was dated 1942 when they dropped the pictures of the two piece suit combination in favour of a picture of polar bear- seriously! In the ads I have they say "supplied to the RAF" and list the benefits in several iterations. These list the Letchworth address, are yours the same?

I've also presumed that there was no difference between the private and AM supplied examples and possibly some of those we see were privately purchased.

Again more Irvin speculation... What a shame it wasn't better documented.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

It is a pity that there isn't more known about this issue.

I have always leaned towards the idea that if a jacket has no obvious signs of government issue - AM zippers, military size label, the yellow hood on CC Irvins (which i doubt would have been popular on a civilian jacket) - then it cannot be assumed it's RAF. A little like the "Luftwaffe" jacket arguments …

I've also presumed that there was no difference between the private and AM supplied examples and possibly some of those we see were privately purchased.

Or even postwar production? (eek. Heresy!) Those lightning zips are seen on garments produced to this day (almost, i think the company in Glastonbury closed down some few months ago). I saw a pair of ladies sheepskin ankle boots manufactured very recently on sale just the other day - Lightning zippers and all.

The bottom line is that without a label there is no way to definitively tell when a jacket was made … or who made it. AM marked zippers probably give a rough range of dates, but i'd be pretty sure leftovers would be utilised postwar.

bk

 

[Roughwear]

It is a pity that there isn't more known about this issue.

I have always leaned towards the idea that if a jacket has no obvious signs of government issue - AM zippers, military size label, the yellow hood on CC Irvins (which i doubt would have been popular on a civilian jacket) - then it cannot be assumed it's RAF. A little like the "Luftwaffe" jacket arguments …

I've also presumed that there was no difference between the private and AM supplied examples and possibly some of those we see were privately purchased.

Or even postwar production? (eek. Heresy!) Those lightning zips are seen on garments produced to this day (almost, i think the company in Glastonbury closed down some few months ago). I saw a pair of ladies sheepskin ankle boots manufactured very recently on sale just the other day - Lightning zippers and all.

The bottom line is that without a label there is no way to definitively tell when a jacket was made … or who made it. AM marked zippers probably give a rough range of dates, but i'd be pretty sure leftovers would be utilised postwar.

bk

I agree with most of this except about the makers. Specific makers had features common to all their Irvins, such as the large collar rings and wide belt loops on Wareings jackets or the small rings and square collars on Irvin Air Chute jackets or the rounded collars on Links jackets. Of course there are jackets even with labels when the maker is uncertain, especially as the larger makers subcontracted work. After 1941 makers rarely put their names on labels anyway.

As to dating an Irvin definitively clearly the presence of a dated label is key. Other features, such as the configuration of panels, the type of zips, type of pile etc... help to give an approximate date range, but are not conclusive.

 

[Cliff]

I bought a "Repro" Irvin a few years ago with this label in it .

I have never found out who made it. Its not an early Aero or ELC and definately not an Aviation Leathercraft. Its made well and to me seems very accurate in cut and detail, even having the hooks on the back of the collar for the elastic strap. Maybe its a "private purchase" !!! Though the term "United Kingdom" on the labe makes me think its later than the 1950s as we were still into "Made in England" or "Great Britain" in those days.

 

[Roughwear]

Cliff your jacket is no earlier than the 1980s. It looks like an early Aero made Irvin, but John Lever might be able to help here. I'm sure I have seen pics of thise jacket before?

 

[Cliff]

Hi Andrew

I sent pics to Aero asking the question but they are very sure that its not one of theirs. I agree its probably 1980s or late 70s. I would love to know who made it as for that era its a very good copy.

cheers

Cliff

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I have been reading adverts for Irvin Air Chute suits in Flight Magazine. The adverts begin in 1937 and run through to 1940. The suits are identical to those worn by the RAF. The adverts often say: "The suit has been ordered in quantity for the R.A.F., but it will be available for club pilots and private owners who remain faithful to the open cockpit." What sort of label did they put on these private purchase Irvins? (Presumably they would not have an AM contract number on them) Or perhaps they did not put a label on them at all?

I have a copy of those ads as well and one last one that was dated 1942 when they dropped the pictures of the two piece suit combination in favour of a picture of polar bear- seriously! In the ads I have they say "supplied to the RAF" and list the benefits in several iterations. These list the Letchworth address, are yours the same?

I've also presumed that there was no difference between the private and AM supplied examples and possibly some of those we see were privately purchased.

Can anyone post those ads? I just picked up a period Irvin with a Barker's of Kensington (big Deco Dept. store) label. Here's Barker's building. Great, no? Barker's closed not too long ago; 2006 i think.

bk

 

[Andrew]

BK, the ads were tough to find and i'm not sure I still have the links though i'll check.

Barkers has closed? What's it used for now? I love that building -it's a classic piece of Deco. My Mum worked there in 1953 when she ran away from Edinburgh to London, and I was always reminded of that when I worked right across the road in 1986.

Now you will have to post a shot of that label!

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Never one to let people down. I'll post pics of the jacket (and a better one of the label) when i get some good light for it.

Re: the ads. I remember Alan Eardley posting some over at Fedora Lounge of the chap putting on the Irvin suit over his business suit.

bk

 

[rich]

BK, are these the ones your thinking of - I think I must have grabbed them from TFL, back when the Irvin Nuts thread was a tour de force ............

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Thanks Rich, those are the ones.

bk

 

[Roughwear]

Never one to let people down. I'll post pics of the jacket (and a better one of the label) when i get some good light for it.

Re: the ads. I remember Alan Eardley posting some over at Fedora Lounge of the chap putting on the Irvin suit over his business suit.

bk

So you bought the £30 Irvin! I should be interested to know if the satin-looking material here is a later added lining from another garment. My guess its not part of the original jacket and that its an issued late War Irvin.

 

[deeb7]

... I should be interested to know if the satin-looking material here is a later added lining from another garment.

You might be right .... it looks more like something salvaged from a women's coat.

 

[Roughwear]

I know Hawkeye used to own an Irvin which had been lined with cloth, so it does happen!

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Yep, i bought the £30 job. I'm not convinced that's satin, though. I reckon a Photoshop job making it look more satiny-er than it is. A nice jacket, on the whole, by the looks of it.

bk

 

[Roughwear]

Without seeing the material in the flesh it's hard to say what it is hence my use of "satin looking" material rather than definitely satin. I wonder whether this as yet un-named material lines all the body of the jacket or only part of it. I'm looking forward to seeing some better pics when it arrives with you Peter.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

What i meant was i'm not convinced it's not just stitched onto the leather side of the skin. Photoshop can do some strange things with apparent textures (satin is of course just a weave). I've got my money on that label being stitched onto the wind flap, which looks "normal" in the other pictures. I shall keep you informed when it gets here.

bk

 

[Roughwear]

The label appears to be hand tacked on to the material. Perhaps the material was added from an old coat lining as the sheepskin irritated the wearer? :lol:

 

[Baron Kurtz]

red herrings.

Yes, the Barker's of Kensington label was for another thing the seller was selling. A women's fur coat. :lol:

bk