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Need Help to Identify "A2 Werber Leather Coat Co. Contract 1729"
- Thread starter Shawn Ali
- Start date
Blackboxr1200S
Well-Known Member
Higher res pics
mulceber
Moderator
Looks like an SAT to me. Be interesting if there are any Werbers with button flaps in there, as that would be the Werber 6225 contract.
Nickb123
Well-Known Member
Hap Arnold’s Martin B-10 Alaska mission.
33-1729
Well-Known Member
The person to Hap Arnold's right, Maj. Hugh J. Knerr per @2BM2K on an earlier post (on the left below), appears to be wearing a Werber 32-6225. Except for the nicely scalloped pockets, laid back epaulets and, perhaps, a collar hook it's hard to make out anything else. Great thing about this picture is that it shows the custom insignia from the Alaska 1934 mission ensuring an official regulation jacket issue (unlike a stray jacket photo). Compare to the button-flapped pockets of the SAT 32-485 on the right.
Ref. https://www.vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/buttoned-pocket-flaps-a-2-jackets.20145/post-205700
2BM2K
Well-Known Member
SAT jackets were fitted with Talon zippers, source; Eastman manual. And the SAT contract was produced
before the Werber 6225 contract.
Meaning the zipper does not preclude Shawn's jacket from being a Werber 6225 jacket.
2BM2K
Well-Known Member
One observation of early photo's that I find of interest is the positioning of the name tag. On A1 jackets the tag was placed above the left pocket.
In early photo's of A2 jackets the position of the tag was above the left pocket.
At some point in time the placement of the name tag was changed to the upper left chest area ( there are exceptions to this even in WW2).
From this it could be deduced that a jacket with a name tag above the left pocket was an earlier issued jacket, that is to say issued before a given date.
Looking at photo's of Werber jackets with the name tag above the pocket I have noticed that these jackets tend to have square pocket corners, similar to Shawn's jacket. This combination maybe an indicator of a 6225 contract.
Here is a photo example of one such jacket;
In early photo's of A2 jackets the position of the tag was above the left pocket.
At some point in time the placement of the name tag was changed to the upper left chest area ( there are exceptions to this even in WW2).
From this it could be deduced that a jacket with a name tag above the left pocket was an earlier issued jacket, that is to say issued before a given date.
Looking at photo's of Werber jackets with the name tag above the pocket I have noticed that these jackets tend to have square pocket corners, similar to Shawn's jacket. This combination maybe an indicator of a 6225 contract.
Here is a photo example of one such jacket;
mulceber
Moderator
The trouble with this hypothesis that Shawn’s jacket is a 6225 (and believe me, I WANT it to be a 6225) is that all our information says that the 6225 was made to the same specifications as the SAT and the Goldsmith - in other words, it should have button pockets. And @33-1729 has been able to identify some people in that photo who appear to be wearing Werbers with buttons.
33-1729
Well-Known Member
Yes, the first three (3) contracts had button-flapped pockets per the 94-3040 specification documents.
With that said, the Alaska 1934 flight took place in July 1934 so this the photograph may contain Werber 33-1729 and Werber 34-518P jackets. I wouldn't know how to tell them apart, but the custom insignia from the Alaska 1934 mission ensures an official regulation jacket issue and this specific photograph identifies who/what/where/when (unlike a stray jacket photo - I'd recommend not using those as there is no documented provenance).
And @zoomer posted a high resolution photograph of the 1934 Alaska mission on an earlier post
www.vintageleatherjackets.org
With that said, the Alaska 1934 flight took place in July 1934 so this the photograph may contain Werber 33-1729 and Werber 34-518P jackets. I wouldn't know how to tell them apart, but the custom insignia from the Alaska 1934 mission ensures an official regulation jacket issue and this specific photograph identifies who/what/where/when (unlike a stray jacket photo - I'd recommend not using those as there is no documented provenance).
And @zoomer posted a high resolution photograph of the 1934 Alaska mission on an earlier post
Best pic yet of Arnold Alaska fliers, 1934
Very large, high resolution scan of what was originally a large-format photo (probably glass plate). Jacket nuts will be over the moon. Standing (L to R) are Lt. Lawrence J. Carr, Lt. Charles H. Howard, Maj. Malcolm C. Grow, Medical Corps (flight surgeon), Maj. Hugh J. Knerr, Lt. Col. Henry H...
www.vintageleatherjackets.org
YoungMedic
Well-Known Member
M.C. Grow's picture here and jacket are very interesting to me, down the rabbit hole I go
YoungMedic
Well-Known Member
As far as I understand, there are no examples of button flap Werbers that are available to reference correct?
mulceber
Moderator
Yep, none.
YoungMedic
Well-Known Member
SO, I might be way off base here, but we are only assuming based on the bid specification that Weber made button hole pockets, but maybe they never did. The contract spec says "conform substantially", but it is possible that Werber only made snap pockets for the first run, and lined the pockets on the 32 jacket like they did on their B-2 jacket from 1931.Yep, none.
mulceber
Moderator
Not off base at all. All the indications that we have say they had button flaps, but none of this evidence is conclusive at all. So COULD Shawn's jacket be a 6225? Yes. It's very possible that already after the SAT contract the Air Corps was looking at ways to fine-tune the design, they started by getting rid of buttons, and gradually did away with things like the lined pockets, then eventually the jetting on the inside, etc. All this is very believable, but there's no evidence for it (except MAYBE for the existence of Shawn's mysterious jacket). And it requires us to ignore some admittedly very flimsy evidence (the use of the phrase "conform substantially").
33-1729
Well-Known Member
There is no reason to speculate when we have the government documents in hand stating the first three (3) contracts conformed to the same specification (with buttoned pocket flaps). There is no tangible evidence to support otherwise, just imagination. Fantasy.
YoungMedic
Well-Known Member
I appreciate your expertise and time you have put researching these jackets. I'm reading through the spec and bid documents for the A-2 but I don't see anything that would require the manufacturers to use buttoned pocket flap closures, only that if they were used, they would have to be leather faced. Is there a document that specifies buttoned pockets?
33-1729
Well-Known Member
If we ignore the written documentation saying they all conformed to the same spec and also ignore the photograph in post 125 showing an example of what we'd expect a Weber 32-6225 jacket to look like based upon that documentation then we can close our eyes and believe what we see.
Or, as my Astrophysics professor said "if the theory doesn't match the data the theory is wrong". Every theory needs to be tested if we want to use it for any decision making.
What is surprising to me is the effort to prove an item we have tangible evidence against, while the thought of a Weber 34-518P in a documented when/what/.where/why 1934 photograph is ignored or that Shawn's jacket could be any other Werber and that would easily fit in with tangible evidence. Why roll the ball uphill?
Or, as my Astrophysics professor said "if the theory doesn't match the data the theory is wrong". Every theory needs to be tested if we want to use it for any decision making.
What is surprising to me is the effort to prove an item we have tangible evidence against, while the thought of a Weber 34-518P in a documented when/what/.where/why 1934 photograph is ignored or that Shawn's jacket could be any other Werber and that would easily fit in with tangible evidence. Why roll the ball uphill?
mulceber
Moderator
I mean, I get it - people want Shawn’s jacket to be an unknown contract jacket. They want a sequel to JC discovering an original RW 1671P. I’d like for that to be the case, I just recognize that the evidence doesn’t give us any reason to think so.
